svache wrote:btw, my apologies for the long post
That's OK. I'll try (but probably fail) to be short in my reply.
svache wrote:I think, before doing anything with such an impact, you should have opened a thread on the forum to discuss it. Not a discussion on the Wiki as much less people read it (from a quick view on that page you pointed out, I noticed only one person besides you commented there). You get a better reach and response in the forums (just look at this thread for example).
Oh piffle.
Firstly, the change to the main proposed alternative can be made by deleting 10 lines from the source. It's not a big deal.
Secondly, a discussion would have done squat. Sometimes you just have to see it.
robin1979 wrote:Yeah, the flags.... Turned out a lot less cool then I thought they would be.
Thirdly I doubt a forum discussions would have done anything. Morlano started one days ago and no one said boo.
I expected people would say something or revert it. So for 2 weeks people get garish colours. At least they see the Wiki is alive and happening, and changing and there's new stuff, and they'll see something they missed before.
And we get to have this discussion.
So since it is so minor and trivial a matter, so easily changed, and since not everyone agrees with you that it is wrong. I still thing my approach was sound.
You may disagree, but I hope you can understand that I'm not completely bat-insane to hold that view.
Sometimes one grasps the nettle, pushes the button and see what happens.
svache wrote:There's also said something about languages and such. There are a couple of MediaWiki language extensions that work really well with this.
That's outside my experience. I'll just comment that you want people with fluency in more than one language to be able to think "hey, I can help with translating here". If you only saw the French, you might never think to help translate the German. Just a thought. I'm sure it has its place, buit is it available now?
You want me to experiment?
svache wrote:One other problem you might be facing here is the width of the page here. Maybe it would be an idea for Waze to actively break out of the set widths in their Wiki and make it variable to screenwidth (like the original Wiki's do). The current width of the wiki (and I mean the main column, not the navigation pane) is about 745 pixels width, which is just too small for multiple columns with the current font height.
If Waze changes the widths of the Wiki, preferably variable to screensize, then you can easily make a two-column lay-out. But right now, I wouldn't do it as it makes it look a bit unprofessional and cluttered.
Well there's a thought. Maybe @Dror can help there. Based on your experience with Mediawiki can you suggest what they need to change? Coz I think that's both a good idea, and achievable.
And if so, maybe we should hold off on any more layout changes until that is resolved one way or another?
svache wrote:To be honest, I disagree with you here. The subheadings are actually a great way to quickly find what you need. The less clicks a user has to do, the better the user experience. I might change my view when the list becomes very very long, but right now it doesn't show too many subheaders.
But that was only with one section given sub-headings. Previously it took many clicks just to get to see all of the table of contents. I really don't think we want to go down a track that doesn't scale.
It does make it harder. Think. With a table of contents with no subs, you have a choice of six items - one click to get to the area you want, and then you should see it all.
With sub items, there is more reading, scrolling, and you don't see it all at a glance.
Plus it's just annoying clutter for people not speaking English. And it pushes the Language option down.
I think @Robin1979 agrees on this point.
Which just goes to show that kind, intelligent people who love Waze and want the best for it and their users don't always agree.
Or so I like to think.
svache wrote:But, now we're on that issue anyways, I'd like to add that the navigation pane on the side is being used too little. The main information should basically be there. When someone is on a sub-subarticle, they shouldn't have to go back all the way to the main page to select another topic and to click their way from there. If you take those 6 main headers, why not put them in the sidebar so people don't have to keep clicking between the articles and mainpage?
Now who's being radical. Hmmm. I don't know if you noticed that I tried to at least make Current Events and Community Portal have something relevant. yes it needs more content but I'm typing as fast as my wife will let me.
I suppose we should get super clever, have the side bar show the content automatically in the rigth language and link them to that section on their own language page....Hmmm, maybe not. We canm tell their language but not which country. So unless we go
[Map Editing in French} which then links to
Map Editing
* France
* Canada
* Belgium
* Switzerland
* Vanuatu
Dunno. May still be easier to let them choose their country manually.
Good ideas though. Time to download Mediawiki and do some mockups. Unless @Dror warns me not to bother.
I know. This is just a cunning plan to keep me off Waze wiki....
svache wrote:As for the discussion further down the topic, putting people off or not with the known issues and such. I think it is a good idea to warn people that Waze is still pretty much learning and that there are known issues. However, I also think we should not put people off. To be honest, in my personal case, I would never have started with Waze if I knew all the known issues beforehand. I would've gone for a different navigation app (I actually still don't use Waze that much for navigation, but more for the social aspect. If I need directions, I rather use my standalone nav device or the Google app since I changed to Android. Waze still cannot be trusted fully). I think it is important to find a balance where we inform people about all the issues, but not as far as to where they're put off to even try Waze. If they want to go deeper into that information, they can always look on different pages within the Wiki.
So many times people say they would just like to be told what was going on. Then they would understand. But people like. They say that, but some people run off at the first sign of trouble. But would they stick with Waze anyway.
I'm open to change, but can we discuss it. Or follow my lead and just make it, and then I'll argue about it.
I rely on waze exclusively and find it better than Tomtom. I use Tomtom if I'm goign where Waze has no maps, but that changes after I've been there.
svache wrote:Also, don't forget that even if the front page of the Wiki shows nothing but known issues, even with big bold letters, you will still see people writing those things in the forums as lots of them don't even bother to check the Wiki. The problem starts also, amongst other things, with the support page itself, it shows little support options. When you then read the technical FAQ, you find only standard information and I can imagine that many users start to think at that point 'never mind the wiki, I'll skip through to the forums'. Also, just look at the forums, many questions have been asked about the same, and even the same questions and such pop up in the same threads. Many people don't bother to read before they post and that is something that cannot be changed easily because it needs a change of themselves.
True but....
My aim is to make the Wiki the 100% complete definitive uptodate source on everything Waze. That when people ask in the forum, the answer is a link to the section in the Wiki. That the Wiki is chosen by Waze to be the first port of call on their support page.
Also people haven't been checking the Wiki because it has been, well not useless, but incomplete. Just read a forum post from July about disconnecting roads. Someone answered. Wow, was the reply. This is great.Why isn't it in the Wiki? Reply: well you could add it now.
Neither of them did. It's there now, by me.
And to link this altogether, you may like a table of contents. For many people it puts them to sleep. Languages and Countries / Getting Started hits them in the face. Not another bland table of contents. Go to the Wiki. See it's got something to get me started, and more advanced stuff further down I can come back to later.
Even without thinking about it.