Alternative Junction Naming Scheme for UK

[Timbones]

With deference to the UK road naming guidelines in the Wiki for junctions, I've been experimenting with some alternative ideas. I'd love to hear what you guys think...

Firstly, ramp names. Given that these are most requently used for navigation, I've opted for a cleaner format that gets rid of redundant words like Exit and M1. I feel that the exits ramps should reflect the road signs where possible, for the navigation instructions. The downside is that any reports made from these ramps might not be so useful.

Examples:

• motorway exit: "J46 to B6164 - Wetherby, York" - city names optional
• A-road exit: "to A19 - York, Selby" - no junction numbers
• on-ramp: "to M1 (S) (J47)" - junction optional

It was recently suggested that we create landmarks around each junction, so that they are easier to identify on the map. However, for some complicated junctions, I found that this doesn't work quite as well as I'd like. An alternative idea from faitaru is to use the city field to name the junctions instead. This should result in more useful reports, both on the ramps and on the motorway.

Same examples from above: "A1(M) J46", "A64 Fulford Interchange" and "M1 J47"

Edit: I think I've now come to realise that abusing the city name like this is probably a bad idea. The ramp naming could still be improved, however.

This should result in more useful reports, both on the ramps and on the motorway. E.g. "Medium traffic on M62 (W) between M62 J31 and M62 J32". Junctions named this way are also easier to see from 'high altitude'. With this LiveMap link, junctions 43 to 50 on the A1(M) are easy to spot.

Notes:

• the road name should be included as part of the city name, to keep it unique. Exceptions may be allowed for junctions with proper names instead of numbers, like the "Armley Gyratory" in Leeds.
• I don't feel that this works so well on urban A-roads, and the names of suburbs probably work better. Maybe this should be restricted to motorways and trunk roads for now.
• the main carriageway should not be included in the junction 'city'. It may be necessary to exclude the ramps to, otherwise the junction name to drift away from the centre. Not sure about this last point.
• I don't think the multi-ramp naming bug exists on the World server. I navigated the M62(E) to M1(N) junction at the weekend, and it correctly gave both ramp names.

>>> See this post for my revised argument.

[TonyG-UK]

Ramp names: Ramp names are quite important for traffic, etc., reports and so need to be useful for both those and navigation. As such I'd have much more of an idea what/where "M1 (S) J46 Exit" means/is than "J46 to B6164 - Wetherby". You can also end up with something like "Jnn to Abb,Acc - PlaceA, PlaceB" - how is that clear to anyone?

Use of "to" in marking ramp names I find quite nasty. Especially when they are used in traffic reports.

Junction naming (landmarks): I find these quite ok when there is a roundabout on the junction, so they fit nicely inside. When there isn't use of a circular landmark near the junction I find better (I have previously suggested placing these over the actual road, rather than to the side).

I think using the city name field for junction naming is not going to look good on the client, it's going to be pretty big, and visible from a long distance, and jump about. From an editing point of view, I also find it quite grating to put road names in the City Field, just because we can. Also, this might interact badly with WazeHQ use of database data.

Rather than staring with solutions, could you run through what you consider bad about the current scheme, and why, for ramp naming and junction naming?

[dmcconachie]

I've never been a fan of the "to " format but given a) I can't remember why and b) it's better than what we have I'm all for it. I wonder if it should be restricted to motorways to begin with though!?
Also, the third example will not work well with the TTS "Turn left at to M1 (S)"
Edit: I think Tony makes a great point about the amount of info in the name!

In theory I like the city name on junctions and I think it might work well but I'm not sure about using a field not designed that way. Also, does it have the same effect on motorways that go through city boundaries?

[Timbones]

Ramp names are quite important for traffic, etc., reports and so need to be useful for both those and navigation. As such I'd have much more of an idea what/where "M1 (S) J46 Exit" means/is than "J46 to B6164 - Wetherby".

While I admit that this is true, I would argue that ramps names get used for navigation a lot more often than for traffic reports. The use of the city field for the junction should hopefully fill in this gap in the report.

You can also end up with something like "Jnn to Abb,Acc - PlaceA, PlaceB" - how is that clear to anyone?

Actually I don't think this is too bad, but the place names can be dropped for clarity when ramps go to multiple roads.
If we're looking for the best names to use in reports, then perhaps place names shouldn't appear at all.
E.g. "Light traffic on J46 to B6164 near A1(M) J46".

Rather than staring with solutions, could you run through what you consider bad about the current scheme, and why, for ramp naming and junction naming?

Personally, I find the current naming of ramps to be ugly and confusing, but I guess this could just be me. When I'm driving along a motorway and see that the next ramp is named "M8 (E) J15 Exit", the only useful bit of information is "J15", and the rest of it is redundant [for navigation]. The junction numbers on motorway signs are typically tiny compared to the rest of the information (unlike in the US). Therefore, seeing which secondary road the junction is for would be helpful.

Perhaps neither scheme is perfect, but I think mine is better

Also, the third example will not work well with the TTS "Turn left at to M1 (S)"

Are you sure? The instruction should be "at the roundabout, take 2nd exit to M1 (S)".
Also, I thought that the TTS made a special allowance for ramps starting with "to", though I can't remember where I got that from. There's a long thread about TTS and ramp names in the US.

[dmcconachie]

Also, the third example will not work well with the TTS "Turn left at to M1 (S)"

Are you sure? The instruction should be "at the roundabout, take 2nd exit to M1 (S)".
Also, I thought that the TTS made a special allowance for ramps starting with "to", though I can't remember where I got that from. There's a long thread about TTS and ramp names in the US.

Perhaps there is a special case but my experience so far is that everything is preceded by "at" which in itself feels wrong to me. "onto" would be better in my opinion but that's a separate thread. I'll give it a shot nearby!

[Dave2084]

Something we need to bear in mind is that we go to great lengths to save a few characters in a road name by making "Random Street" to be "Random St" so it looks good on the client ... But now were discussing naming a junction something like this:

M1 (N) J24 A453 A50 A6 Nottingham Derby Kegworth East Midlands Airport

OK this is an extreme example but this is all valid data at J24!

We need to keep it short and sweet, if you look back to Aug 2010 you'll see this has all been talked about before.

As mentioned, TTS needs to be considered as well. The use of "to" is a no no in my opinion as it will make for bad English in the instructions, plus if we end up with my extreme example above how long will it take it to say it, you'll probably be off the ramp and scratching you head on the roundabout before instructions for the ramp ended!

Let's not rush into anything and carefully consider all aspects of any change to the wiki which will case a significant amount of rework.

Every potential option needs to balance the following:
1. Client map view
2. Client visual routing
3. Client routing text
4. Client audible routing including TTS
5. Client traffic reports
6. Update requests
7. Map editing usability
8. ?

[Edit: Corrected Junction number, I guessed wrong whist on my phone is should be J24 not J23]

[Timbones]

But now we're discussing naming a junction something like this:

M1 (N) J23 A453 A50 A6 Nottingham Derby Kegworth East Midlands Airport

I think you misunderstand me. I was only proposing that we'd name the junction "M1 J24" with ramps like "J24 to A453, A50, A6" or "J24 to A453 - Nottingham". There's no need to add all the information, just what would be most useful to the driver.

[Dave2084]

But now we're discussing naming a junction something like this:

M1 (N) J23 A453 A50 A6 Nottingham Derby Kegworth East Midlands Airport

I think you misunderstand me. I was only proposing that we'd name the junction "M1 J24" with ramps like "J24 to A453, A50, A6" or "J24 to A453 - Nottingham". There's no need to add all the information, just what would be most useful to the driver.

Which information will be useful does of course depend on where he is going!

[Timbones]

If you find the word "to" bothersome, then how about replacing it with a colon instead:

e.g "J23: A512 - Loughborough" or "J24: A453 A50 A6".
For non-Motorways, this should become "Exit: A19 - York, Selby".

In fact this is recommend by the Best map editing practice* in the Wiki says this:

As stated elsewhere, off-ramps should be named according to their exit number if they have one, as well as whatever is on the actual exit sign; e.g., "Exit 7: Rte 3 S / Braintree / Cape Cod".

On-ramps should be named "to" whatever they lead to; e.g., "to I-93 S / Quincy / Providence RI".

See Exit ramps and Entrance ramps for further guidelines for ramps and how they work with TTS.
*this is primarily for US editors I know, but still.

[Dave2084]

All interesting stuff, gonna need to spend some time on my PC later absorbing all this!

(my eyes are bleeding now from too much forum usage on my phone!)

Something else to throw into the mix as well as TTS is that of road shields/badges. This was discussed at the mega wazers meet up but I've not seen anything since.