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Converging Technologies: Railroad Crossings and GPS

Post by banished
There was discussion about the need to have railroads as part of the Waze maps (http://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5236) and that Waze made a decision not to include them.

Here's why I think that decision needs to be readdressed. GPSs will eventually be able to receive train position warnings when approaching a grade crossing. The concept of an "intelligent grade crossing" has moved out of the concept stage to the R&D stage, and now limited field testing is approaching reality. According to Sam Alibrahim of the Federal Railroad Administration’s R&D office, “We have [funding] to prototype a system that will bring approaching train information inside the vehicle, to the driver.” The same article goes continues, “The systems will need…Global Positioning Satellite technology to receive the information.” (1)

While the current crop of stock, after-market vehicle navigation systems, or smartphones -- as best I can tell -- don't yet have the necessary receiver, when the time comes for this technology to move into widespread field testing, Waze maps need to be ready.

Also see http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/am ... tmeyer.pdf, page 28.

(1) Trains Magazine, August 2011, p14
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Post by AlanOfTheBerg
This is full of awesomeness and potential for Waze to jump on. But why does this need to be hardware-dependent? Why can't the GPS position of the train be available on the "internet" which can be checked real-time by GPS navigation systems and reported in the client app? This is just another type of traffic alert or hazard to my mind, in Waze-speak.
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Post by banished
DOT is about to move in to field testing.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... ed-wireles

http://www.its.dot.gov/research/safety_ ... erview.htm

AlanoftheBerg, to answer your question, continuous train location information is a transportation security (Dept. of Homeland Security) issue. The system being discussed is a near-field warning system. I wish I could get in on this test!
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Post by banished
daknife wrote:Threat Vulnerability assessments are something I do on a regular basis. Gimme another weak "Terrorists!!!!" argument.
I didn't really mean for this to become a discussion about rail security, but about intelligent grade crossings as described in the briefing linked in my original post.

In any case, there's no need to argue about it. The USG threat assessments are done. Railroads are identified as part of critical national infrastructure. What you're really talking about is the amount of residual risk, which -- as you allude to -- is substantial, but ONLY if one believes every mile of track has equal target value. Obviously not. If one of the 5 lines feeding Salt Lake City & Ogden get taken out, don't call me at 3 a.m. Call me when it gets to 4 lines.

So, the vulnerability of the rails are one thing; the trains, their locations, the commodities they carry, the signals and computer-controlled dispatching systems, are another. Now, having said that I didn't mean for this to be a discussion about rail security, I'll leave it at that. :)

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Post by bgodette
banished wrote:AlanoftheBerg, to answer your question, continuous train location information is a transportation security (Dept. of Homeland Security) issue. The system being discussed is a near-field warning system. I wish I could get in on this test!
The only significant difference between continuous train location and a series of specific detectors is you can't differentiate the presence of *a* train and the presence of a *specific* train without additional information on schedules and identifiers.

In any case in theory just having state information on RR crossing light/gate activation would be huge for an active reroute system like Waze.
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Post by Daknife
As to the security issue, unless they are talking very specific trains that concern is meaningless. Two teams, one observer one attacker set up a few miles apart on the tracks, once the observer notes a train of the desired form moving down the tracks they call it in alerting the strike team to place their derailer or other method of attack. Simple easy to do and impossible to block or hide. Those concerns are most likely just the efforts of some company to ensure their patented transmitter/receiver gets widely sold and shoehorned into every smartphone and GPS on the market, regardless of the actual threat. Threat Vulnerability assessments are something I do on a regular basis. Gimme another weak "Terrorists!!!!" argument.

Fact is, if someone wants to target the rail system, it's a done deal, and there is really no way to effectively guard an extensive rail network.
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Post by Daknife
No argument with the discussion not really needing to go into that realm but merely pointing out that such a reason for not integrating with already established and widely used technologies is not a valid reason even though the DHS says otherwise. Not that we can over-rule them.
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