My understanding for the only for signage rule is that the client is supposed to be giving U-Turn instructions soon. So if its not signed, it would say In 500 feet, make a u-turn onto Woodward Avenue south.
The written standard for the DRAFT is quite simply wrong. The solid white line is legally irrelevant and should have no bearing on the turn. Just as it is irrelevant for a right turn lane at almost any standard intersection. Or the left turn lane on a two way undivided street (unlike a double white line which means never cross, one solid white line means don’t cross without a reason – such as you wish to turn left into the MUTI). To follow the example of normal left and right turns, the MUTI should be a simple arc like they are used all along Telegraph Road.
Agree completely for MUTIs - Locks for ramps should equal the highest road it connects, so it matches. But not for turn arounds of which one or two are present between MUTIs. Those should simply be streets and left at L1.
This might have warranted the start of a new thread, but in any case, these will undoubtedly have to be revised - either based on current usage or for any new guidance that may be required because of new features.
For the signage problem, just as the case cited where there is no “proper signage” for a clearly established MUTI, not all crossovers to provide access to business/parking lots are MUTIs. The “proper signage” was to prevent needless clutter/conversion of any access across the median to MUTI standards. Finding a way to codify this by modifying the “proper signage” condition to cover “clear” MUTIs without also leaving the door open for any crossover to qualify is the issue.
As to the solid white line issue, one should take this as a strong recommendation that the decision is expected to be made by the time the WSL occurs. While there is no clear consensus from the various DOTs on the legalities of crossing WSLs, and there are lots of opinions on this as well, it’s pretty clear that most MUTIs expect people to get to that lane in advance of the turn. There are outliers where this guidance can and should be overridden, but it seems prudent to give the driver the best guidance to get to the lane as soon as possible. Some judgement can be used for cases of an unusually long WSL - sometimes originating before the intersection - but under most circumstances using the start of the WSL as the first decision point is hard to argue against.
The trickiest of all is the use of road types here. Given a ramp type, the only possible instructions are “exit” or “turn”. Use of exit would sound odd to a driver, and “keep” is not an option. The problem with “turn” at the start of the MUTI is that it often comes very close to the actual intersection, possibly making the driver feel that they are being given an illegal instruction to turn AT the intersection. The use of the ramp type was made to prevent unnecessary clutter to street name displayed on the app. If they weren’t so prevalent, I would argue these would benefit from wayfinder treatment using a segment of 5M. But that is way too tedious for this. While this is good discussion, making any meaningful changes may need to wait and see if there is a waze fix for this.
I also don’t think this needs calling out for locking standards. If we continue using ramp type, ramp-locking already covers this condition.
I agree with removing the “proper signage” requirement for MUTIs in Michigan. Not all areas use the same type of signage, though. What works for Michigan will not work for Michigan lefts in Louisiana, for instance.
As for the naming of non-MUTI turnarounds, your understanding of the situation is incomplete. Naming them won’t change anything, it’ll still say “Turn left on…” as long as you are using the Street type. Use of the Ramp type for these is not proper and against the national standard. My suggestion is to settle on a uniform name for these, such as “Turnaround”. In Louisiana we use “U turn” because many of them are signed as such.
An MUTI comprises two 90° turns. The proper instruction for each of these turns is “Turn.” The first instruction does not signify your entering into the lane, it signifies the first 90° motion you make. The guidance would be the same as with any other 90° turn.
“Stay to the left, then turn left” has a different meaning in Waze – get into a turn lane and then actually do the turn. Using such an instruction set in an MUTI would be misleading.
Agreed regarding MUTIs (but already covered by the standard), not so much about standard turnarounds. But there isn’t much you can do to a standard turnaround when the main road is locked, anyway, except renaming and geometry.
I think that the existing draft fails to sufficiently distinguish MUTI from crossover, other than the presence of signs, and requirement of a nearby cross-street where the desired turn is not allowed. These are a matter of location and positioning - and may or may not affect configuration (as far as TTS is concerned).
Don’t forget that we are in a right-hand traffic locale - I think this extends to mean that we give driving instructions under the assumption that the driver is travelling in the right-hand lane. Although there is no ‘exit left’ instruction (under a false assumption that you cannot have left-handed exits in a right-handed locale) ‘keep left’ is there in it’s place, for a reason. I believe this is because the “keep left” instruction provides valuable lane-changing instruction in line with the intent of the MUTI’s turn lane that “turn left” does not. Dedicated turn lanes exist to relieve congestion, similar to ramps guiding traffic away from the main road
Proposal: the determination for keep vs. turn left should be based on the road configuration, not solely on status as a MUTI or crossover.
Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but, you don’t get a “keep left” instruction before any other 90° left-hand turn, why would you get one here? In other words, if you hear “In half a mile, turn left,” and you’re in the right lane, you’re going to get into the left lane, just as you would if you heard “In half a mile, stay to the left.” There’s no difference. I don’t understand the “issue” with the screenshot you posted.
I agree that the determination for keep vs. turn should depend on the road configuration, but the road configuration at just about every MUTI and turnaround I’ve been on in Michigan has been that of a mostly-straight median with near-90° turns at both ends.
I would argue this isn’t like any other 90, rather it functions as a u-turn (2 90s in fact) as the U in MUTI suggests. And the maneuver happens as a 2-step process - a deceleration lane followed by the turns which isn’t exactly like a dedicated left turn lane at a light-controlled intersection.
The use of WSL (White Solid Lines) is meant to discourage crossing over those - and similar to the treatment of ramp nodes, should normally be placed at (or close to) the “gore” unless there is an unnecessarily long (in the editors eyes) WSL. The deviation from the thru route at the beginning of the WSL suggests this is where the first maneuver instruction should occur to get in the dedicated lane and gives the driver the appropriate distance gauge for when to do this. The distance/timing to the turn completion instruction is nearly the same either way. So, as you say most Michigan MUTIs occur in nearly straight-line fashion which actually means it is most commonly a full 180 u-turn rather than 2 distinct lefts. Perhaps this is a quantifiable distinction, since quite a few MUTIs in Michigan actually have shoulder extensions on the far side to facilitate the turn completion. 2 distinct 90s probably wouldn’t.
The Michigan Left (or a u-turn) maneuver is not two 90° left turns. It is more fluid operation, like taking a ramp at an exit. You follow the ramp wherever it takes you, then make a turn at the intersection. I assert this is why ‘signed’ is a prereq. for being a MI Left. Effectively, you are exiting one direction of travel, and taking another.
We suffer from not having a ‘exit left’ instruction, and have to suffice with ‘keep left’, which is acceptable for the time being.
I think the issue in the screen shot is a result of a “Turn left in XX feet” instruction, since the MUTI is oriented as two 90deg lefts. They got to Portage Rd and heard turn left, so they did.
And from not having a ‘continue straight’. Will be interested to see how the Junction Box would handle this.
