Staff communication with community is broken

Map Editors Community General Topics
81

First iainhouse, thank you for opening this topic to begin with as well as your update above.

This was the first time actually I saw the mention of Google within the thread. I am not a beta tester anymore myself, I gave that up a long time ago after working with several Software MFG’s and a couple of ISP’s in the IT side of those companies from MS pre V1 through Windows NT, and Mac OS pre 1.0 through OSX 10.X, etc. I prefer Mac over Windows for better security but, that’s another issue.

Yes the communication for you all that are here and the HQ does seem to have gotten worse and better at times, I’m sure. The bigger problem that I have is as either you or another pointed out in one form or another, that the end user has been totally left out of the loop for any true contact with an Issue without having the app installed to begin with. For example with the latest update that was just posted on Nov 8, 2017 which broke the app on my IOS devices to where the app would open and then close. Even after deleting the app and reinstalling it as usually suggested, it did not help at all.
I tried to find a phone # or email to open a TT with Waze support to no avail. It is not possible to do and the only place to get any support hopefully is this forum.

I could not get to this forum either initially since the app would not open and the forum login did not give me even a way to create a new account. Fortunately although I had not backed up my phone in a while I still had the older Waze 3.9.6.ipa in my older iTunes Mobile Applications folder and was able to restore that to my iPhone and had to create a new account here through that restored app just to be able to log in. There should also be a repository for Older versions of the .ipa’s that were officially released as iTunes seems to have dissabled that function again to get older versions.

I did post in the appropriate forum area for IOS but also after looking through there and seeing a lot of oh this or that is broken … I saw very little response on some of the issues. Not making one feel very good there. I am not trying to throw blame on you or others that help here on the forum especially seeing what has been said in this topic regarding communication with HQ.

Getting back to what I said about the first mention of Google though within this topic, when I first heard google was buying Waze back in 2013, I was disappointed and a little scared as I personally dont like Google and their tracking, etc. but, again that is another issue.

That being said though Google Does Own Waze and google has made a lot of changes to various things over the past year including very recently their Google Captcha V2 which does not always work well now with certain Apps unless the Web servers Admin that is using their newly improved (cough) V2 configures it certain ways other than their default method.
As mentioned also previously when Apple introduced Parking Google/Waze woke up so to speak and added the capability into Waze, other than such as that apparently they were not doing a whole lot of improvements, if I remember the post from earlier correctly.

With IOS 11 being released of course many apps released had to be updated but unfortunately backward compatibility is not always part of Apples desire either. It does make it difficult to krrp Apps such as this working properly for the various devices running older IOS also. google and Apple unfortunately are not the best of friends so to speak. There are many issues with the IOS 11 and apple is updating it more than they really should need to IMHO but, then that happens when developers decide to make changes users dont really need or want. Another example is Apple itunes 12.7 will not allow one to back up Apps and a few other things iTunes was able to do easily with previous version. Google does the same thing often and even google maps is more difficult to use as some of the features previously are not there anymore either being replaced with features Google thinks we need or want as end users. On devices I recently used Google Maps to find some directions and to get to the actual street by street directions was worse than what it used to be when I last used the app on the iPhone.

I apologize if this seems off topic or my min novel here is too much but, I had to say what I did and hope it makes some sense as to possible other reasons why communication with HQ is at times probably frustrating to you all. I know it is fro an end user.

82

If you want to open a ticket: https://support.google.com/waze/answer/6276841?hl=en

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83

I couldn’t agree more.

I also am quite new in these global issues so I understand your point very well and also would like to see more opportunities for end users’ and outsiders’ communication than this forum.

84

After reading this thread went deeper into the Forum for discovery, I have to say this has been maybe the most inspiring discussion I have witnessed @ Waze Community.

So, Big Thanks again for iainhouse. It has been a great pleasure to meet you twice, first in Berlin and this year in Amsterdam! Every note or statement you made in this meetup were really meaningful and thorough!

Can’t wait to meet you again, hopefully in April already :slight_smile:

85

Sorry but I think you are developing Stockholm Syndrome

If you can point me to anything that shows what the plan is for various Waze features. Yeah sure https://waze.uservoice.com exists but then it isnt updated. The fifth item down has been implemented but still listed as planned.

Waze HQ breaks stuff and then does nothing to fix it. Specifically the water layer. Over three years ago this was broken. https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=124948 And what has happened since. Absolutely nothing. No communication. Nothing.

Then there are features rolled out in the editor like Tunnels. Just over two years ago. https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=165173 What has been the point of that? Nothing. A bunch of VOLUNTEER editor effort to mark up all the appropriate segments and then nothing.

In Australia we regularly have new editors ask what does Waze HQ want us to do about X to which the reply is they couldn’t care less. Comply with the wiki and beyond that we will just agree as a country how we want to do it. That is an outrageous situation and for a company which relies on its community to update the maps I cant believe the level of contempt to be honest.

So please if there has been change then please point me to it so I can feel some level of appreciation.

86

I find your tone mildly offensive. I find the reference to Stockholm Syndrome particularly unpleasant: if you want to read a recent post I made here, you’ll see I still have little sympathy for my captors. :wink:

I said there had been “significant” improvement and I meant exactly that. I didn’t say there had been “massive” improvement, or that it was no longer an issue. To quote a Googled definition, significant means “sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention”.

If the quality of communication was measured on a scale of say, 1 to 5, then an improvement from 1 to 2 would be significant. It doesn’t mean that it’s now good - only that it’s noticeably less bad than it was.

If you don’t see any evidence of this, then you need to get out of the local forum a bit. Some examples:

  • There are now regular, staff-created release threads for new versions of WME in both production and Beta
  • Staff are also responding to issues on those threads: not anything like as often as I would like,
    but more than they ever did before.
  • Bug reports are being taken far more seriously - getting responses and getting fixed. Admittedly this happens mostly in the Beta community, which makes it far less visible to the majority than I would like, but it’s a lot better than it used to be.
  • Staff have re-organised the direct channel with Global Champs and are, far more responsive than they used to be. Again, it’s not as good as I would like it to be, but it’s better.
    And just to demonstrate I can point out bad things as well as good, a prime example is the release of the new WME user interface: lack of contrast; insulting lack of consideration for laptop users; an increasingly complex interface; hiding necessary information from lower level editors. All problems we’ve been complaining about for years.

So the issue of staff communication with the community isn’t fixed. It may never reach a level to satisfy myself or others. But on the other hand, there is no point in only ranting about it. Staff have made definite efforts to improve and it is only fair to acknowledge this.

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87

I totally agree on what you said so well, Iain!

Each of us could see the cup half full or half empty. For me, it is always better to see it half full

88

+1

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

89

I fully agree.
Still far from very good communication, but much better.
We can ask for more, but we should also thank for what we got.

Enviado usando Tapatalk

90

I’m editing the map for a while now… but never ever happened that the HQ told us what to do. Maybe it’s weird for a newbie, but everyone has to learn that Waze is unique in the market, there is no other enterprise which handles their community this way, or works this way.

Your country’s map is your business. Your “job” is to edit the map to reflect reality as much as it can. And Waze gives you the tools for it. Simple as that.

In the past 7-8 years there were zillions of improvements regarding the editing tools and possibilities. And over 90% of the new tools came because we (community) needed it. Maybe not all communities need all the tools, but our ask is usually heard.

So don’t expect that HQ will tell you how to edit your map. It’s your business. Their job is to support you with the WME and make a good enough navigation system in your country.

Have fun,

Marcell

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91

I appreciate the update post from iainhouse, he is the creator of this topic and giving an update is helpful to those who have been interested and following the progress of the concerns posted.
Would like everyone to consider the great waze editor community leadership that is in place at the local and global levels, the champs and county coordinators do hear the frustrations, and do escalate the items deemed necessary and beneficial to the community.
Please understand that at each level there is a prioritization of the items, this is necessary to ensure focus is placed on the most important and continue to elevate other items when an item is addressed or/and as priorities change.
Never forget that the local/global representation is communicating with staff in the background, they may not always find satisfaction but they do not give up and are always advocating for the editing community.
I agree that improvements have been made in the communication with staff, and that it will continue to improve, and I look forward to iainhouse’s updates in this topic on that progress.

92

OK I will attempt to engage though our GC and see if any issues get resolved.

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for Waze HQ to simply ignore global issues such as water layer, long distance navigation and tunnel navigation, for example. You can’t just ignore the users who are helping to make your app a success. You end up with a situation like around Melbourne at the moment with effectively no editors. https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lon=144.96148&lat=-37.80261&zoom=0

Yes that is an interesting point of view but normally for any “job” you would get something back. The issues we have in Australia are not with the WME so I am not sure what all these issues are that other countries are having. What we need fixed are all the issues that we have to apologise for in URs that we the map editors have no control over.

I hear though from the responders that things are apparently not as bad as I think so I will, as I said, attempt to address these issues through the GC.

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You say you’ve been told that they ignore them, that is hardly proof that they do.
There are beta channels and Champs channels where staff replies to those issues, maybe the issue isn’t with HQ but with communication with your Champs who have access to these things and leave you to think staff simply ignore them.

I’ll skip the water problem with IFS because living in a mountainous country I haven’t followed it. However, long distance navigation is something they are actively trying to solve, even currently testing solutions with beta leaders. Regarding tunnels I lost count of how many times they responded about the tunnel issue by giving their reply that they think the solution is Waze beacons, which many disagree with staff about but that is a different matter, they did not ignore us and gave a reply none the less, even if it’s not a popular one.

Granted HQ not fixing certain issues faster or deciding they will not use a feature editors worked on is frustrating, but if they are working on fixing one of them and did give an answer about the second which I’m suprised you never heard about, that hardly fits the definition of ignoring.

If communication was not working and that HQ did ignore us I wouldn’t have been able to answer you as I did and neither would the other people above. We’d have told you we don’t know what’s going on either… So I disagree that it’s a problem with HQ, that’s an understandable viewpoint from your perspective but what I see is that you’re not being properly informed and don’t have the full picture that would allow you to make some of the statements you keep making above.*

I would also suggest that you ask your Champs about joining the beta programs either with the client or WME teams if you want to see improvements, that’s the only way you’ll have access to some information that beta testers or Champs cannot share publicly.

*As a sidenote, I was a bit surprised to read your latest post because I had contacted you via PM (which you read but never answered) to let you know about those things privately already… Despite that here you make another public statement about HQ ignoring the community when you had information indicating the contrary. If you’re fighting against people ignoring others, why do it yourself? :expressionless:

94

I’ve had a PM from Traveling_Gav apologising for offending me. The comments about Stockholm Syndrome were intended to be tongue-in-cheek and I completely accept this and the fact I took it in the wrong way. :slight_smile: Regardless of how it was intended/taken, I think his original post still has considerable value because it raises several interesting points.

Staff communication with the Community - on-topic
I started this whole topic started by saying it was broken. I wanted to get a reaction and have a positive benefit. The reaction was beyond my wildest expectations and the benefits have been real. But it’s a long journey (maybe never-ending) and one which we have only started.

Sometimes there is a fresh failure of staff communication. I feel like screaming about it but feel that would be unfair given the improvements we have seen. Sometimes something works really well and I feel that praising it would minimise the great problems that still remain.

So anything that keeps this discussion alive and keeps us focused on improving things is to be applauded.

Communication between editors - sort of on-topic
That doesn’t always work smoothly either. Traveling_Gav said something that mildly upset me and I responded. That could have descended into anger and insults, but it didn’t. We have communicated; we have explained ourselves. I think we both know a bit more about each other and there have been wider benefits from the exchange. Things are never perfect, but if an initial disagreement can be turned in a positive direction, we all gain from it.

Communications within Editor Communities - off-topic but worth talking about!
Let’s face it: we are sometimes no better than staff. It’s easy for me to look at the UK community and imagine everything works. We have multiple, highly-active Global Champs. We have a group of active and supportive Local Champs. We have experienced editors who are willing to speak their minds and (perhaps) the famously reserved British character lets us keep things polite! :lol:

But local communities (including the UK) don’t work perfectly all the time - and that is rarely down to one person or group. None of us are given training in Waze Community Maintenance. We’re all volunteers and not everyone has large amounts of time to dedicate to Waze. There are no entry requirements for the Waze Community, so anyone is free to join and contribute and those who are here have to accommodate all points of view.

Many local communities in Waze are Self-Managed. You could look at that as being a benefit: more control of what matters to your community. But it should really be viewed as a responsibility. Self-Managed means HQ aren’t going to do it for you any more. It doesn’t mean that a Global Champ or Coordinator is going to take over and do all the work - they have no more time to spare than you do and no more authority other than experience. Self-Management is a responsibility that falls to every level of the local community.

So whilst we are always happy to throw stones at HQ, we should remember we are living in glass houses. Nothing guarantees that we are “doing communication” any better than they are. If there are problems here, it’s something we need to recognise and deal with in a positive way.

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95

Thanks Vince. Your points are well made and I think Iain has summed it up that perhaps the next layer down from HQ may also need improving in terms of communication for the Australian editors. I will be trying to coordinate a better way to disseminate information particularly for issues which are dragging on for years. Right now we have he situation whereby people (like me) are forced to Google for forum posts from who knows how long ago to try and find answers which may or may not still be relevant.
i think we probably agree though that there are issues which are being handled poorly. Any further ideas how best to handle these standing problems would be appreciated. If you want an example then please use the water layer problem.

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