How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby gettingthere » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:57 pm

sagi wrote:Parking Lot roads, Parking Lot landmarks and gas station landmarks, all suppress the creation of map problems. If you think that are more road types or landmark types that should have this effect, please let us know.


Although Parking Lot roads only help if there are exactly where the Wazer is driving. Unfortunately if there are enough gps tracks going a slightly different way than where the parking lot roads are drawn, likely to get another map problem.

After a lot of thought and experimenting with different options, I feel that the best option is to mark the map problem as 'not a problem'. There is no routing issue here. A map update is not required.

Hopefully Waze (sagi and team) are working on some type of logic in the map problems layer to stop reporting new problems after they have been marked 'not a problem' a couple of times.

Basically the issue is that Waze is trying to be productive and calling out potential mapping issues with the map problem layer. Great, in some cases there is map problem that is affecting routing and that needs to be corrected.

But in the case of these types of issues (gas stations, convenience stores, etc) there really is no map problem this is affecting the Waze routing. If you set a route to the gas station, it will get you close enough without a parking lot road, landmark or otherwise.

I just worked a couple hundred map problems in the vicinity of Phoenix, AZ. I don't have the exact numbers but maybe 10% - 20% of the map problems were map issue that were affecting navigation. The other 80% - 90% were map problems that are not affecting navigation in Shopping Centers, Gas Stations, Drive-thru's etc. Those I marked as not a problem.

Another thing that I want to draw attention to is that sometimes adding Parking Lots roads actually causes routing problems and confusion. As AlanOfTheBerg and bgodette have posted elsewhere there are issues with adding parking lot roads:

* If they are unnamed, navigation will often tell you turn turn on xyz road, but this road is not the next parking lot segment but a named street later in the route. Confusing to the driver since they are not yet turning on the street that is being announced.
* Parking lot roads have higher penalties than turn restrictions. So in some cases (usually with navigating over multiple parking lot segments) Waze will break a turn restriction to route off the parking lot segments. This is not correct and can be dangerous if the Wazer is not paying attention to the median in the road or the no left turn sign.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby CBenson » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:33 pm

gettingthere wrote:But in the case of these types of issues (gas stations, convenience stores, etc) there really is no map problem this is affecting the Waze routing.
I'm not convinced that when you drive through a gas station (and presumably stop with waze running) that the track data is not assigned to the nearby road to create traffic alerts and average speeds for routing. My understanding is that if the track is within a parking lot or gas station landmark or closer to a parking lot road, then this shouldn't happen.

gettingthere wrote:Another thing that I want to draw attention to is that sometimes adding Parking Lots roads actually causes routing problems and confusion. As AlanOfTheBerg and bgodette have posted elsewhere there are issues with adding parking lot roads:

* If they are unnamed, navigation will often tell you turn turn on xyz road, but this road is not the next parking lot segment but a named street later in the route. Confusing to the driver since they are not yet turning on the street that is being announced.
True, but this is independent of road type. This is simply a problem of being routed out of an area through unnamed roads. The result of not putting in these roads is getting the routing instruction "proceed to highlighted route" which isn't really more clear.

gettingthere wrote:* Parking lot roads have higher penalties than turn restrictions. So in some cases (usually with navigating over multiple parking lot segments) Waze will break a turn restriction to route off the parking lot segments. This is not correct and can be dangerous if the Wazer is not paying attention to the median in the road or the no left turn sign.
I don't see this being a problem for the typical corner gas station or roadside fast food restaurant.
Last edited by CBenson on Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby CBenson » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:45 pm

gettingthere wrote:Hopefully Waze (sagi and team) are working on some type of logic in the map problems layer to stop reporting new problems after they have been marked 'not a problem' a couple of times.
The only indication of what the "not a problem" mark does that I have seen is that "it makes it stand out visually when we (staff) are surveying map problems in papyrus." I took this to mean that marking problems "not a problem" a couple of times was just an invitation for the ign team to tackle the area.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby gettingthere » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:26 pm

CBenson wrote:I'm not convinced that when you drive through a gas station (and presumably stop with waze running) that the track data is not assigned to the nearby road to create traffic alerts and average speeds for routing. My understanding is that if the track is within a parking lot or gas station landmark or closer to a parking lot road, then this shouldn't happen.


The issue here is that since the parking lot roads will be close to the streets that Waze my not correctly snap to the parking lot roads when you are filling up at the gas station. Especially when in navigation mode. So roads through gas stations may not help with false traffic jams at all.

CBenson wrote:The result of not putting in these roads is getting the routing instruction "proceed to highlighted route" which isn't really more clear.


Personally I would rather see 'proceed to highlighted route' than get incorrect navigation guidance.

CBenson wrote: I don't see this being a problem for the typical corner gas station or roadside fast food restaurant.


You have a point here. May not be an issue with single segment parking lot segments. I don't know that there are other posts in the forum that prove or disprove this. I had expanded the scope that the OP had by including other type of parking lots.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby iahim » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:01 pm

sagi wrote:Parking Lot roads, Parking Lot landmarks and gas station landmarks, all suppress the creation of map problems. If you think that are more road types or landmark types that should have this effect, please let us know.

Sagi,
Thanks for the clarification. I think this is important information and needs to be added in the wiki.

Perhaps ATM's, Banks and Restaurants should be suppressed too. I'm thinking some users may have used these landmarks in lieu of Parking Lot, so the drive-through traffic may generate map problems.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby sagi » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:17 am

gettingthere wrote:Although Parking Lot roads only help if there are exactly where the Wazer is driving. Unfortunately if there are enough gps tracks going a slightly different way than where the parking lot roads are drawn, likely to get another map problem.


Actually the parking lot road doesn't have to match your drive exactly. Its enough that the last segment you are snapped to, is a parking lot road. So putting only entrance/exit parking lot road stubs should suffice in repressing map problems.

iahim wrote:Perhaps ATM's, Banks and Restaurants should be suppressed too.


ok, will check this option.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby bgodette » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:29 am

sagi wrote:Actually the parking lot road doesn't have to match your drive exactly. Its enough that the last segment you are snapped to, is a parking lot road. So putting only entrance/exit parking lot road stubs should suffice in repressing map problems.

Interesting, but what happens if you have say a large mall with a large outer ring road, but only 4 or so access point from real streets, and the geometry is such then if you go around the ring you snap to real roads.
IOW your last snap was a Parking Lot, but while still driving around you snap to a real street, drive around a bit more, then snap to another Parking Lot segment.
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How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby gettingthere » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:57 am

Seems that if your last segment is a street and you are driving, slower than the road average, and more than 50 meters in a segment, you will create a jam on that segment. I don't believe a jam can be generated on a parking lot segment.

As I read what Sagi posted, we should only be creating parking lot stubs into POI's vs. entire road networks to suppress the map problems and jams. Also, if only one segment of a parking lot stub is created, shouldn't cause an issue with broken turn restrictions routing out of the parking lot.

Needs some testing...
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby CBenson » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:21 pm

gettingthere wrote:
CBenson wrote:The result of not putting in these roads is getting the routing instruction "proceed to highlighted route" which isn't really more clear.


Personally I would rather see 'proceed to highlighted route' than get incorrect navigation guidance.


I take the instructions for what they are. I don't really see the internal parking lot instruction to be incorrect per se. It would be better if the instructions used "to" instead of "at" when a turn occurs at an unnamed road. But when in a large parking lot, waze will give me instruction such as "turn right at Jennifer Rd" when approaching an internal parking lot road. This tells me two things 1) waze is taking me to the Jennifer Rd exit of the lot and 2) a right turn should get me there. "Proceed to highlighted route" tells me nothing. I prefer the instructions even if imperfect.
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Re: How to handle The roads are too far apart ... problem?

Postby Nucleardean » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:04 am

Adding newer information to this old thread...

Recently I found that routing to a marked gas station that was on the intersection of two major (with median) streets routed me past the station to the next local street and had me come up "behind" the station were a road didn't exist. I fixed the issue by adding a service road to the entry/exits.

Example:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-122.0 ... =7&env=usa
I was traveling EB on Thornton so turning left onto NB Fremont and an immediate right into the driveway is the correct path. Waze sent me past to turn left on Moraine Street (NB) and left on Turner Pl (WB).

So it seems that adding the entry/exit driveways can make a big difference for gas stations routing and this seems key for Waze since there is (now) advertising tied to it. I had clicked the popup flag even though I go to that station regularly and was frustrated it routed me incorrectly.
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