WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby jasonh300 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:49 am

razor2k wrote:You're right...I was looking at the leading score from the week before :oops:


Yes, I have no doubt that user used Extended Tools. However, that user has already been checked out and there's no suspicious editing that anyone could find. Not all use of Extended Tools is bad. But in the hands of a person with bad intentions, or to someone who just doesn't care, it can be very destructive.

Personally, I've done 100,000 points in a week without ET, but that was when business was slow and I was editing 6-8 hours a day.
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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby jondrush » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:31 am

I've used extended tools very little. Almost solely to add city names where none existed. Since the advent of the highlighter tool and the new editor, I haven't touched it.

Unfortunately, it promotes low quality editing even in the hands of responsible users, because they don't get "intimate" with each segment and spy the real problems that cause bad routing. I've spent all week cleaning up after an editor who was apparently using it. From 10,000 feet, the map looks great, but when you get up close, it is a disaster, barely route-able and full of mistakes of names, cities and turns.

If I may make an analogy, in real life we don't give little children high-powered electric tools until they have demonstrated the maturity, wisdom and experience to handle them.
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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:35 am

razor2k wrote:Ok Alan, let me play devils advocate here. You have the respect of just about everyone on the forum. But how did you rack up your points? I'm sure it was with the use of ET...right?

Nope. I have previously used ET to look for city names incorrectly assigned to segments. I have recently (2-3 months ago) used ET to unlock a couple hundred improperly locked residential streets in Hawaii. So, you could give me maybe up to 300 edits using ET. Otherwise, no, no use of ET at all. I don't even have it installed. For the Hawaii unlocks, I downloaded it, used it, deleted it.

The majority of users getting 100k points in a day around the world now is almost exclusively attributable to abusing the current ET. There are other ways I am sure.

I am just as likely to site and make 100 changes to a single segment to align it to GPS points/aerials as I am to go solve map problems or update requests. And those 100 changes which can take up to 5 minutes, will get me 1 edit. But when you can easily spend 20-40 hours per week doing map editing, it's easy enough to rack up a lot of edits.
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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:15 am

doomedtx wrote:In my area, there are dozens and dozens of towns with little or no drive data. Fixing them requires comparison with authorized data, lots of straightening out, lots of deletion, etc. At the end of the process it's far too tedious to select every junction to be sure the drives have been allowed.

Actually, it isn't too tedious. It's what the non-ET users have been doing for years. I do small towns all the time. There is a lack of patience in the world.... I, and many others, have gotten to hundreds of thousands of edits without using ET, or very limited usage. Why can't you and everyone else, do the same?

Using ET to select an entire town, turn all roads 2-way and allow all turns is sloppy. I've seen this done more time than I can count and had to clean up the mess, setting 1-ways back they way they should, disabling all those left turns across the median, etc. It wastes more of my time to fix the problems caused. Not the fault of ET directly, but without it, it would at least make it more painful to the idiot who misused it. Whole towns changed so all streets have the same name, some towns completely deleted.

In the hands of conscientious users, it can be used for great good. But in the hands of morons, saboteurs, or the inexperienced, it can cause great damage. And what measure do we use to filter those types of users out? Those who have been around long enough to make it to 200, 300, 400k edits already. If you stick around for that long, chances are you aren't going to be stupid. How else do you propose we ensure only the "good" editors are allowed to use it?

doomedtx wrote:Yet another counter argument: the roundabout tool can destroy more area far more quickly but is available to every level 0 (or 1, whatever they are now) editor right off the bat.

Not true in my testing. A roundabout will only delete roads within its radius which are also selectable at that zoom level. ET is the same. So they both operate within the same selectability rules. They are pretty much equal.
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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby Daknife » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:31 am

Count me as another major point scorer who has not used the ET, I tried it once, but saw the dangers and decided it wasn't worth the risk. So my total ET edit count is about 20 or less.
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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby fvwazing » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:51 am

And me too. I have used ET sporadicly in the past, to fix special cases, but all that comes down to less than 1% of my total edits. I stumbled into this thread today because I am looking for a new version of ET - to install, use for a wicked case, and uninstall. I made my first 200k edits in my first 2 years - using Cartouche, the old editor, that forced one to think about each and every click BEFORE it was clicked.I do not "crack open" complete neighborhoods but rather do the connections between the villages and leave the details to the locals to deal with. By NOT fixing the neighborhoods I take into account that Waze will not route correctly from doorstep to doorstep but rather from hood to hood - which covers probably over 90% of the distance of each drive. I do clean loose connections, complicated crossings and the like in neighborhoods and ET will not help me a bit with that.

The problem with massedits is that they do not help much in the achievement of quality in the map and that users of ET gain countrymanagerstatus within weeks - without learning how Waze works. I am sure that in the past year, with intervals between map-updates of some 6 weeks, there were some users that worked to CM-status without having seen 2 updates, and so have no estimate of the validity of their actions.
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Re: Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - Eng

Postby razor2k » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:01 pm

jasonh300 wrote:
razor2k wrote:Look at the leader board up to today... 100k points in a few days? How do you explain that without ET? I don't see how anyone can stay up that long, especially with the new editor :?:


I was referring to the All time top ten. However, on the weekly top 10, the highest one is 42,420. That's about 13,000 edits. At 1000 edits per hour, it's doable if someone has a lot of time on their hands. Most likely it was aided with ET.


If you do the math it comes to around 1.5 edits per every 5 seconds non stop for an hour. Seems highly unlikely unless you're a robot with a computer processor for a brain.....or using ET:smile:

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Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - English

Postby razor2k » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:18 pm

viewtopic.php?t=33218
How to get 97,000 points in one day

While I don't want to see ET go away, this makes a good case for doing so.

Hopefully the link works...this is the first I've tried this with tapatalk. If it doesn't, I'm sure you will find it in the forum.
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Re: Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) - Eng

Postby fvwazing » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:36 pm

razor2k wrote:If you do the math it comes to around 1.5 edits per every 5 seconds non stop for an hour. Seems highly unlikely unless you're a robot with a computer processor for a brain.....or using ET:smile:


Actually it is more like 1 edit per second for 5 minutes, and then 5 minutes off. I scan the area for (potential) problems, find some, take a deep breath and plunge for another 5 minutes. I take your reference to being a robot as a compliment and as an encouragement, but for now I still have to break every few minutes.

Can anyone explain me the benefits of putting a cityname on every street in a remote village, with no Wazetracks around? By enabling all roads in a village you are solving problems that do not even exist - remember, there where NO WAZETRACKS. Some day local editors will pop up and start editing. Using ET means robbing them of half the points. There is less chance that they will pick up editing. By leaving the raw basemap as it is, with all its quirks, unnecessary split roads, loose ends and whatever you burden those future local editors with more complexity then they can handle.

The current pointsystem does not discourage using ET in that bad manner and it does not encourage adding love to detail. It should be changed in such a way that you can not become CM if the only "technique" you learned is mass-editing with ET.
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Re: Re: Re: WME - Extended Tools (fka Plugin pour Papyrus) -

Postby razor2k » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:07 pm

fvwazing wrote:
razor2k wrote:If you do the math it comes to around 1.5 edits per every 5 seconds non stop for an hour. Seems highly unlikely unless you're a robot with a computer processor for a brain.....or using ET:smile:


Actually it is more like 1 edit per second for 5 minutes, and then 5 minutes off. I scan the area for (potential) problems, find some, take a deep breath and plunge for another 5 minutes. I take your reference to being a robot as a compliment and as an encouragement, but for now I still have to break every few minutes.

Can anyone explain me the benefits of putting a cityname on every street in a remote village, with no Wazetracks around? By enabling all roads in a village you are solving problems that do not even exist - remember, there where NO WAZETRACKS. Some day local editors will pop up and start editing. Using ET means robbing them of half the points. There is less chance that they will pick up editing. By leaving the raw basemap as it is, with all its quirks, unnecessary split roads, loose ends and whatever you burden those future local editors with more complexity then they can handle.

The current pointsystem does not discourage using ET in that bad manner and it does not encourage adding love to detail. It should be changed in such a way that you can not become CM if the only "technique" you learned is mass-editing with ET.



Sorry, there is no way you can do 1 edit per second 5 minutes straight without some sort of assistance....just not possible. You may dispute this if you want, but you won't convince me without proven data:smile:

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