Service Roads

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Re: Service Roads

Postby jasonh300 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:18 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:One standard down, only a million to go! :lol:


With the exception of Ramps that lead into rest areas and weigh stations which may go directly into streets or parking lot roads?

gettingthere wrote:Aren't some editos using Service Roads for Alleys?


If they are, they're misunderstanding the definition of Service Roads as service alleys which is a totally different thing.

Some of the basemap imports used Service Roads as U-turns, right turn shortcuts and a couple of other things that I can't think of right now.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=4&lat ... TFFTFTTTTT

This is a service road that's set as a Minor Highway. The whole thing is the Westbank Expressway, or US-90 Bus. The blue part is elevated limited access, and the yellow part is ground level service road. You can travel the entire length of it at ground level at 35-45 MPH speed limit with 3 lanes, and that's how you access any businesses on the expressway. The ground level roads are labeled "Westbank Expressway" on the modern signs, but if you look closely, you can still see some very old black and white signs on utility poles set far off the road that actually say "Service Rd", which date back to before the elevated expressway was built.

To top it all off, the elevated portion is labeled "I-49 future corridor" and it's currently an unsigned interstate called I-910, but nobody's supposed to know that. Recently it's name has been changed to the "Harry Lee Expressway", but there's only one sign indicating that and it hasn't caught on.

For now, I'm leaving it exactly as it is. 8-)
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Re: Service Roads

Postby WeeeZer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Here is an example of what it looks like in Hoboken via street view

Now to check to see how they are set on the map...
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Re: Service Roads

Postby MReiser » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:23 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:Only thing I have every heard or read is that service roads are the same as a regular street to the routing server.

Yes I believe some are using service roads for alleys. I am not sure if that is a conflict with the definition I am working with or not. I think it would work okay. Do you have any thoughts either way?

I'd tend to think that parking lot road may be better -- only go there if your destination is on that segment. It will also suppress traffic reports. Not many people will care that there is slow traffic on a back alley somewhere.

Of course I have been known to use narrow cobble stone alleys in Hoboken NJ for blocks and blocks to bypass the regular roads. But I would NEVER recommend that route to someone else with out a ton of disclaimers.


Take a look at all the alleys here in Brigantine, NJ: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... 6,32115965

I made them all Parking Lot Roads because I couldn't imagine the routing disaster that could occur if Waze started sending people down these little driveway access roads. There is no way these could be considered anything that might use them for routing.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby WeeeZer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:14 pm

Only thing I have every heard or read is that service roads are the same as a regular street to the routing server.

Yes I believe some are using service roads for alleys. I am not sure if that is a conflict with the definition I am working with or not. I think it would work okay. Do you have any thoughts either way?

I'd tend to think that parking lot road may be better -- only go there if your destination is on that segment. It will also suppress traffic reports. Not many people will care that there is slow traffic on a back alley somewhere.

Of course I have been known to use narrow cobble stone alleys in Hoboken NJ for blocks and blocks to bypass the regular roads. But I would NEVER recommend that route to someone else with out a ton of disclaimers.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby WeeeZer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:51 pm

I created a new topic to discuss Primary Streets so we can keep focused on Service Roads here.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby bgodette » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:44 pm

mapcat wrote:But besides that, my general feeling is that primary streets and a minor highways fulfill the same roles, only one has a highway number (US or state) and the other one doesn't (or it's a county highway). Rare exceptions apply, of course.

That's exactly how I look at it as well. There's lots of 2 to 3 lane and some 4 lane wide roads here that aren't numbered highways, and if they weren't urban no one would have qualms about saying they were highways. I've made them Primary as I come across them, but the only preference they seem to be getting is on account of their generally higher average speeds.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby WeeeZer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:36 pm

mapcat wrote:It definitely needs to have a higher rank than Street (otherwise, what's the point, other than to make them stand out in the client?). But besides that, my general feeling is that primary streets and a minor highways fulfill the same roles, only one has a highway number (US or state) and the other one doesn't (or it's a county highway). Rare exceptions apply, of course.


What is the point, well it may be that the original intent was display only. Just like my thought for Service Roads. Priority is part of what we are trying to hash out in the discussion of NJ road types. Right now I am thinking that primary street should be a tier below Minor Highway. It is something that is important/high volume, but calling it a highway would be very generous.

I guess this touches on some of the difference between a highway (a physical structure) and a route (a logical designation). Sometimes they play nice together, other times they bash heads.

mapcat wrote:
WeeeZer14 wrote:... my "rule" that any ramp should terminate on at least a Primary Street as well. (Except for say rest areas or ramps to a private/secured campus.

Good rule. Ought to be the standard.


One standard down, only a million to go! :lol:

And damn, I try to make topics to focus on one area and they all branch out on tangents. We are all complex thinkers!
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Re: Service Roads

Postby mapcat » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:21 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:If Primary Street is modified to be given higher priority than Street, I would hope that it is still less than the priority given to Minor Highway or above. But we don't know how granular their priorities can be.

It definitely needs to have a higher rank than Street (otherwise, what's the point, other than to make them stand out in the client?). But besides that, my general feeling is that primary streets and a minor highways fulfill the same roles, only one has a highway number (US or state) and the other one doesn't (or it's a county highway). Rare exceptions apply, of course.
... my "rule" that any ramp should terminate on at least a Primary Street as well. (Except for say rest areas or ramps to a private/secured campus.

Good rule. Ought to be the standard.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby WeeeZer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:05 pm

mapcat wrote:I agree with all four of your examples. BUT: Even though the urban frontage roads in Texas, Oklahoma, and a few other states are major roads in and of themselves, worthy of being called primary street due to their heavy use, should they be considered as part of the "primary road" type selected for long-distance routing? Assuming that primary streets fall under "primary road"; at the meeting it seemed that Waze isn't quite sure they do.


If Primary Street is modified to be given higher priority than Street, I would hope that it is still less than the priority given to Minor Highway or above. But we don't know how granular their priorities can be.

mapcat wrote:I also wonder if there's a strict need for a special "service road" category, if they truly are treated like regular streets (and I don't have any reason to think that they aren't).


Maybe not. Based on how the Service Roads are rendered on the Live Map (not at all except for name), I assume the original intent was to reduce clutter at certain zoom levels. No need to show these frontage roads since it follows the main road, so just show the main road to users until they would actually need the frontage road. But the client doesn't seem to hide them like the live map does.

mapcat wrote:Once you have these sorted out, do you think you'll have the stamina to establish the final verdict on major/minor highways?


Maybe. :lol:

MReiser4670 wrote:The reason I had even asked about how Waze treats Service Roads in routing is this particular little segment of road in my neighborhood: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=63831524

Good example to look at. I could argue Private, Parking Lot, and Service Road if I tried :)

If we use Service Road, maybe restricting the right turn from the little segment to Oklahoma would be enough? Of course I am sure people would violate it and throw up errors and some well meaning person would enable the turn again. Sigh.

This is where my thought of more turn options would be nice - allowed, restricted, not preferred. We could then set the turns through that segment as not preferred.

Any chance average speeds would eventually make the shortcut less appetizing?

MReiser4670 wrote:Also, here is an example where I agreed with your thinking on when a frontage road is NOT a Service Road: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=4&lat ... 2,41768702

Woodhaven Rd (PA 63) is a limited access freeway with highly-traveled frontage roads in both directions. Their primary purpose are as connections to on & off ramps for the highway so I gave them the Primary Road designation.


And this fits into my "rule" that any ramp should terminate on at least a Primary Street as well. (Except for say rest areas or ramps to a private/secured campus.
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Re: Service Roads

Postby MReiser » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:50 pm

Also, here is an example where I agreed with your thinking on when a frontage road is NOT a Service Road: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=4&lat ... 2,41768702

Woodhaven Rd (PA 63) is a limited access freeway with highly-traveled frontage roads in both directions. Their primary purpose are as connections to on & off ramps for the highway so I gave them the Primary Road designation.
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