*UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

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Re: *UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby Timbones » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 pm

Is this naming convention specific to ramps in the United States?
If so, can the discussion/voting be moved to an appropriate forum?

Ta. :)
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby tibble » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:55 pm

What about signs that have 2 routes and 2 cities?
example:

Exit 298: I-176 / PA-10 / Morgantown / Reading
What would we do there?

Exit 298: 1-176 / PA-10: Morgantown / Reading

I don't think that works. I think we need something simple, that isn't a colon, that waze then makes a pause. or better yet, something that waze makes a pause and then doesn't display
maybe:

Exit 298: I-176(p) PA-10(p) Morgantown(p) Reading(p)
which would show up as

Exit 298: I-176 PA-10 Morgantown Reading

hmm no that looks like crap, but I think the point is we need to decide what looks good and then get waze to add a pause for it.
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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby thebuca » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:59 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:The only exception I employ for not putting ALL the info on the sign into a single segment is when a ramp exits to two distinct exits and the BGS for the first ramp shows both the exit numbers.

For example, ramp exits with BGS showing "Exit 12A: I-95 N / Cityname1 ; Exit 12B: I-95 S / Cityname2" and then down the ramp is a split in some manner into both ramps. This BGS is too long for a single segment name to be useful and to have TTS fit into an announcement before the next split into the actual ramp happens. TTS would be too late.

The standard agreed to in previous ramp name threads (I think it was agreed to) is to not name the first segment, and let the next ramp segments be named and propagate "backward" so that if the driver is heading to 12A, they will get "Exit 12A: I-95 N / Cityname1" for the first exit and the next, which will match part of the first BGS they see, and will match the second BGS they see.

I can't recall if that was in the wiki or not, but I recently did an interchange like that where the off ramp connected to the interstate was unnamed and the individual ramp segments which split off of that had the names of the exits (A and B). Did the PA turnpike like that too where as you approach it will say "exit to the right at Pennsylvania Turnpike, I-76, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh" and once you pass through the toll booth the split segments will direct you where to go, as in "stay to the left at I-76 E / Philadelphia". REALLY cool how it pretty much speaks the signs as you pass them.


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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby thebuca » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:41 pm

MReiser4670 wrote:
In my opinion, we just need to do our best to recreate the signs as the driver sees them. I can't imagine adding control cities where there aren't any listed, and sometimes there are discrepancies through interchanges that create confusion unless the driver can simply hear what they see.

My local PA Turnpike exit is a great example. This is how the signs read all the way through the interchange in all directions:

Both EB & WB exiting the turnpike "Exit 343: Willow Grove / PA-611 to Doylestown / Jenkintown"

Go through toll

SB "PA-611 S to Willow Grove / Abington"
Center "to Home Depot Dr"
NB "PA-611 N to Doylestown / Horsham / NAS JRB Willow Grove"

Getting onto the turnpike from PA-611:

NB No BGS, just a big Penna Turnpike sign with a tiny I-276 crest attached. So "to I-276 / PA Turnpike"
SB "I-276 / PA Turnpike to Philadelphia / Harrisburg"

Go through toll

WB "I-276 W to Harrisburg"
EB "I-276 E to New Jersey"

Note that there are 6 different control cities exiting the turnpike and 3 entering. Also notice that Jenkintown doesn't even show NB or SB after the toll even though it was one of the control cities on the exit signs. Also notice that PA-611 SB traffic gets Philadelphia as a control city, but it doesn't show EB or WB after the toll. I can't imagine any other way to name these ramps but to merely repeat the signs as they are seen.


I agree. What we put in the map should be exactly what the driver sees as he's reading the sign. A generic shield with some cities gets "Exit 000: PA-999 / Gotham City / Joisey" and specific names for shields gets "Exit 000: PA-999 to Gotham City / I-76 E to Filthadelphia".


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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby thebuca » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:59 pm

tibble wrote:What about signs that have 2 routes and 2 cities?
example:

Exit 298: I-176 / PA-10 / Morgantown / Reading
What would we do there?

Exit 298: 1-176 / PA-10: Morgantown / Reading

I don't think that works. I think we need something simple, that isn't a colon, that waze then makes a pause. or better yet, something that waze makes a pause and then doesn't display
maybe:

Exit 298: I-176(p) PA-10(p) Morgantown(p) Reading(p)
which would show up as

Exit 298: I-176 PA-10 Morgantown Reading

hmm no that looks like crap, but I think the point is we need to decide what looks good and then get waze to add a pause for it.

I used to eat at the pizza hut near that interchange all the time on the back way to coatesville :)

I still maintain adding a pause for a slash will benefit us the most, then we use the word "to" for multi road exits, but only if the sign groups the city and road separately. Using Morgantown for the example, the sign has the two road shields and then "Reading" with "Morgantown" underneath it. If you look at the sign, the text "Exit 298: I-176 / PA-10 / Reading /Morgantown" will read the sign verbatim.

If the sign had I-176 with Reading under it and then next to it PA-10 with Morgantown under it, then having it say "Exit 298: I-176 to Reading / PA-10 to Morgantown" would read the sign verbatim.


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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby Spil » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:50 am

sketch wrote:I have recently been considering the removal of "to". I like the idea of not having it on the display at all. The Select Entire Street feature is a lot less essential now that most extraneous nodes have been removed and those that exist are very easy to remove, so that's a minimal loss. For road reports, well, it's not quite optimal, but the minimap display does help.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

UPDATE: After updating one interchange as a test subject for the removal of "to", I realize just how much this would affect. It would not only make Select Entire Street problematic for freeways, but for almost any street a freeway intersects. I cannot recommend this in good faith unless the Select Entire Street function is altered to select only segments that have the same Type. Otherwise we would be making editing a lot more troublesome, especially for new editors.

I'm in favor of the idea of removing the "to" also, and I don't see how this can really be a problem in the "Select Entire Street" function, when the proper names for the ramp and freeway segments are applied.

The freeway segments are named with the road name and direction ("I-86 E", "I-81 N", etc.); the ramp segments include that data as well as the control city. Thus, with the onramps named as in "I-90 W / Buffalo" (rather than the current "to I-90 W / Buffalo"), this still automatically prevents them from being selected with their corresponding "I-90 W" freeway segments in a "Select Entire Street" function.
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Re: *UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Sat May 19, 2012 8:28 pm

The conclusion was added to the first post about a month ago. I will be putting this up for a vote as soon as I can make the poll.

Our goal in the naming of ramps has always been to match road signage as directly as possible. This makes both editing and navigation clear, obvious, and non-ambiguous. You hear it on your speaker, you see it on your phone, and you read it on the sign, word for word.

In essence, this proposal is a standardized, compartmentalized naming system for ramps in the United States. I will give examples for every usage, but every example is a direct result of the standard system.

---

Every ramp name, as signed, has elements in one or more of three essential component groups:
Exit numbers,
Highway designation shields, and
Road / City names.
The component groups are to be separated by a colon (:). The colon gives a long pause in text-to-speech (TTS) and is the most logical and compact punctuation mark for its task, implying relation but establishing a hierarchy (visual).

For a given ramp, each group may comprise multiple items or may be empty. If a group is empty, the group is omitted. If a group contains more than one item, the items within the group are to be separated by a slash (/). The slash is the most logical punctuation mark for its task, implying a list of alternatives which are more or less equivalent in importance.

Represented graphically, the essential formula is this:
[exit number]: [shields]: [names]

Expanded,
[exit number]: [shield] / [shield]: [name] / [name] / [name]
for an example with two shields and three city/street names.

As before, if no exit number exists, the shield or name will be preceded with "to ".

---

Here are a number of examples, presented in bold with the old style in italics (if different) and the breakdown to essentials in normal text. Some street view links to signs are included as well.

to I-10 E -- to shield
to I-10 E: New Orleans -- to I-10 E / New Orleans -- to shield: name
to I-310 N / LA-3127 N: Donaldsonville / New Orleans -- to I-310 N / LA-3127 N / Donaldsonville / New Orleans -- to shield / shield: name / name -- http://g.co/maps/pgcx2
to Loyola Ave -- to name
to Causeway Blvd S -- to name
to Carondelet St / St Charles Ave -- to name / name -- http://g.co/maps/hvxgt
to Causeway Blvd N / Mandeville -- to name / name
to Clearview Pkwy S / Huey Long Bridge -- to name / name
Exit 16: Diamondhead -- exit: name
Exit 228: Causeway Blvd / Mandeville -- exit: name / name
Exit 234A: US-90 Business: Westbank -- Exit 234A: US-90 Business / Westbank -- exit: shield: name
Exit 220: I-310 S: Boutte / Houma -- Exit 220: I-310 S / Boutte / Houma -- exit: shield: name / name -- http://g.co/maps/erw3r
Exit 246A: I-510 S / LA-47 S: Chalmette -- Exit 246A: I-510 S / LA-47 S / Chalmette -- exit: shield / shield: name
Exit 246B: LA-47 N: Little Woods -- Exit 246B: LA-47 N / Little Woods -- exit: shield: name
Exit 246A-B: I-510 S / LA-47: Chalmette / Little Woods -- Exit 246A-B: I-510 S / LA-47 / Chalmette / Little Woods -- exit: shield / shield: name / name -- http://g.co/maps/uy7w5
Exit 2: SR-607: NASA John C Stennis Space Center / Waveland -- Exit 2: SR-607 / NASA John C Stennis Space Center / Waveland -- exit: shield: name / name

Anything underlined and red (typically slashes: /) was not included in the original standards but has since been hastily added. For instance, the original standard called for "to I-10 E New Orleans".

Everything within the parts follows from the sign itself and using our existing naming standards. A split-numbered exit written on its signs as "Exit 246A-B" is to be labeled "Exit 246A-B", not "Exits 246A-B", "Exit 246A/B", "Exits 246A, 246B", "Exits 246A-246B", "Exit 246A - B", or any other way.

Exits without numbers are treated the same way as entrance ramps. There are examples of both in the list.

---

Additionally, this proposal includes one entirely new naming convention: pathfinder or reassurance signs.

Typical exits come from the rightmost lanes of an interstate highway. Sometimes, this isn't the case, a reality that can be especially problematic when an exit on the left takes up as many or more lanes as the continuation of the interstate does. Here are a few:

I-10 E: New Orleans Business District -- http://g.co/maps/u2n5g
I-10 E: Slidell -- http://g.co/maps/ztzs7
I-10 E: Bay St Louis -- http://g.co/maps/uu8nm

This is the only case where the "to" is omitted with no exit number. In this case, "to" is misleading, since you are already on the indicated road and wish to remain on that road.

This is not necessarily required for every case in which a pathfinder is used; they're relatively common. When there are many lanes of travel going to an exit, especially when the exit is on the left and/or to another freeway, it's certainly worth considering.

---

That's basically it. There are a few intricacies for making the pathfinders work and for exits with separate signs but one ramp (at first) that I may include later. This is effectively what the OP of the poll will say, though, once I am able to create it.
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Re: *UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:25 pm

andrewfatcat wrote:In my area, I am currently using "Exit xx: xxx Rd, xxx St", and it works pretty well. This uses less character than "Exit xx: xxx Rd / xxx St". I justify this because it is not necessary to be "or" in this case. It can also be "and". Therefore, using ", " should be literally correct.

Commas will always look out of place in this context. The slash is a better visual seperator, and besides, it's already the standard. You will never see a road sign with a comma on it.

I strongly oppose using double-colon for the highway directions because it really looks bad and not logical. If I am going to put the city after the highway, I will be using "Exit xxx: I-10 East (San Antonio)" or "Exit xxx: I-10 East - San Antonio" because they look much better than the double colon and more logical. And I doubt the need to add city name in some cases because it should be already enough for people to understand the directions if there is only the highway name. Putting too much information does not help much and just making the TTS more verbose.

I disagree. Parentheses are clunky, and the hyphen (which should technically be a dash, anyway) with spaces on either side eats up a LOT of real estate.

I think a lot of people are reacting to the idea of two colons in a phrase too quickly. I think we'd have some converts if you had a couple in your area to test. It works. Quite well.

About the entrance ramps in my area, I am currently using "To I-10 North" instead of "to I-10 North". "To" makes the whole thing looks better than using "to", and it is also more literally correct. If one looks closely to some of the highway signs, sometimes there is a "TO" on the top of the highway badge. Therefore, I think capitalize the "T" should not be a problem. The TTS works the same in both cases.

This is another case where there's no reason to mess with convention. "to" is a small formality designed to keep ramps from being selected by the Select All Streets tool. It is a very small word that still manages to take up more screen real estate than it should. Anything that makes it bigger would be counterproductive. Also, the "TO" on some highway signs means something different than it does on our ramps.

jondrush wrote:Also strongly opposed to double colon. Would like to eliminate all colons if we could get TTS to behave. Slashes are extra characters, but they present nicely on the phone display.

A certain element of preferring a colon to a slash or a slash to a dash or a dash to a colon is always going to be aesthetic. Some people are going to like it, some people aren't. Here are the facts:

A colon takes up less space, its proposed usage is logical according to its usage in English grammar, and it currently begets a pause in TTS speech.

A slash takes up more space, does not currently provide a pause in speech (even though this was asked for and promised three months ago), and in the place of the proposed colon it does not make grammatical sense.

A hyphen suffers from many of the same problems: it makes more sense than a slash grammatically (although, again, it should technically be a dash), but it doesn't provide a pause, and in fact that pause hasn't even been requested.

I'm okay with a vote for the approval/rejection process. I have taken your survey, banished.
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*UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:31 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
jondrush wrote:
sketch wrote:The standard has always only included the word "Exit" for exits from a freeway (limited access)—either "Exit xxx: Road" or "Exit to Road". Ramps onto freeways from roads that are not limited-access have always just been "to Road".

Why? Why is a ramp from a non-freeway to a freeway not worthy of an "Exit Right" announcement? I'm not talking about turning lanes here, true ramps.

For unnumbered "Exits" from US or state routes, I also often use "Exit to <city>" or "Exit to <road>" as it is the best way to be clear to the driver in TTS.

I also still disagree with the use of the second colon. I don't like how it looks and I don't like the TTS for it. It is still most clear to use "to" instead of ":" but I do understand the need for some brevity, screen real estate/width available for characters, etc. Conversely, with good TTS, we shouldn't have to look at the screen for the info but just be able to drive and listen to the announcement, which is where having the "to" is better. If we could get Waze to announce every ":" after the first one which is combined with the word "Exit," as a "to" instead of a pause, that would be ideal(er). That all being said, I would fall in the with majority vote as this isn't a HUGE deal.

Actually, I did test the "to" in a couple places around town, one of which is an exit I use at least three times a week, usually more. The "to" sort of tends to make everything before and after it run together. I much prefer the pause inflicted by the colon.

There isn't really any need to put "Exit" on the name of any ramp off the side of any highway, because the TTS instruction is "Exit to the right", anyway. It's sort of redundant and wastes time. To be honest, I think it would be better if unnumbered exits from freeways also did not include the word, because "Exit to the right, at exit to Carondelet Street / St Charles Avenue" adds nothing but time to the announcement, where "Exit to the right, at Carondelet Street / St Charles Avenue" conveys the message perfectly (with the segment named "to Carondelet St / St Charles Ave"). However, starting the segment name with "Exit" does provide visual congruence, especially in situations where only three or four exits are not numbered, sandwiched between an interstate and another freeway with 7 or 8 numbered exits.

As for "Exit to: Road" vs. "Exit to Road", now that I'm looking at it this way, I think "Exit: Road" is actually more sensible and more in line with "Exit 228: Street".
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*UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:44 am

We built the Wiki ourselves, and it is ours to change. I understand the desire for a voting process, but I don't think it's necessary, and to be honest it seems like a bit of a nightmare. We can have a yes or no question asking whether members of the community approve, and if it's "no", we're left with the existing faulty system; or, we can have a few different proposals, none of which will ever get a majority.

Nothing truly great has ever come out of a focus group. Design by committee gave us the Chevy Citation, not the iPod.

As for the split roads thing, strict adherence to the 5m "rule" is an oversimplification. Some roads with much narrower medians cannot be accurately mapped (vis-à-vis U-turns, etc.) as a single, two-way road.
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