*UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

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*UPDATED* Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:42 pm

UPDATE: After this discussion and significant testing, I have concluded that this proposal should be pushed forward. If anyone has any objections, please speak now. I will put this up to a vote shortly.

Examples are provided for clarity in this post.


Hey everyone,

I've been testing a few ideas I've had for punctuation in ramp naming and how it works with TTS.

All the changes can be simplified to one thing: adding colons between highway shields and road/city names. This will insert a pause in TTS rather than running all the words together: "Exit right, at Eye Ten East New Orleans" becomes "Exit right, at Eye Ten East -- New Orleans".

Most of the time a sign presents you with a shield and some text, it will be showing one of two things: the place that highway will take you or a local name for that highway. A colon is logical either way:

"to US-61: Airline Dr / Tulane Ave" -- Airline and Tulane are local names for 61. Two names for the same thing, similar to a title/subtitle relationship, cf. "The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring", "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo".

"to I-310 S: Boutte / Houma" -- 310 takes you south to Boutte and, later, to US-90, which takes you to Houma. A way and a destination, cf. "Flight 439: San Francisco (SFO)".

I propose that the colon be used on entrance ramps, exits, and pathfinder signs (where appropriate):

Image
Entrance ramps: "to I-10 W: Baton Rouge" and "to I-10 E: Slidell"

Image
Exit: "Exit 230: I-610 E: Slidell"
Pathfinder: "I-10 E: New Orleans Business District" (new)

I would include the pathfinder for routing here because I-10 splits off to the right, with as many lanes of travel as I-610, which continues straight on the left. Intuition would lead you to believe that I-10 continues to the left, but this is not the case, so there should be an instruction. This is accomplished with one short freeway segment named as such.

Image
Exit: "Exit 220: I-310 S: Boutte / Houma"

In this case, I would not put the pathfinder on the map, because I-10 continues west through the three leftmost lanes of travel.

The only thing that looks a bit kludgy is the double colon in exit names, but I believe this is the best alternative. A comma looks way out of place, a hyphen or dash takes up too much room, a space alone does not provide the logical pause, and a slash is misleading by making it seem like the highway and the city/local name are separate options (besides, slashes don't pause yet).

I know it's always a lot of work to change all the ramps and so forth, but as I said before, I think we should hold ourselves to the best standards we can.
Last edited by sketch on Sat May 19, 2012 5:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby gettingthere » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:50 pm

Since standard changes are being suggested...

Regarding entry ramp naming, why is 'to' needed? The TTS ignores the word to in the entry ramp name and says it or 'at' natively. Every road goes 'to' somewhere. Other GPS applications don't have have 'to' displayed for the next turn instruction.

It's redundant and not needed.
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby CBenson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:52 pm

I always thought the "to" was needed to distinguish from the actual road. Not so important if the sign has the control city, but if it doesn't you need to say "to I-95 N" rather than just "I-95 N" on the ramp.
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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby gettingthere » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:57 pm

CBenson wrote:I always thought the "to" was needed to distinguish from the actual road. Not so important if the sign has the control city, but if it doesn't you need to say "to I-95 N" rather than just "I-95 N" on the ramp.


If it's a type ramp, we know it's not the actual road. As far as reports, there is the map preview.
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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby gettingthere » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:02 pm

And really if we were not overly concerned with reports, we could leave the entry ramps unnamed since the next road segment will be picked up and displayed.

Exit ramps do need to remain as named. There is value add to match the BGS, provide exit number, control city, etc.
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby CBenson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:03 pm

I thought it caused problems with the select the entire street function.
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Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby FrisbeeDog » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:07 pm

I'm not in favor of having multiple colons. It looks funny to me and is something you would never do grammatically. I know what we are doing is shorthand for directions, but I think we do need to follow some rules of punctuation usage.

Someone had said that the request was made to have the slash also execute a pause so I say we keep the current standard with one Colin have the exit number and patiently wait for Waze to update the TTS.

What we also have to keep in mind is that not everyone wants TTS so we want to keep the ramp name clear too and I think the additional colons makes that confusing.
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby sketch » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:18 pm

CBenson wrote:I always thought the "to" was needed to distinguish from the actual road. Not so important if the sign has the control city, but if it doesn't you need to say "to I-95 N" rather than just "I-95 N" on the ramp.

This is exactly it. It interfered with the Select Entire Street feature when we were creating the standards two and a half years ago.

I have recently been considering the removal of "to". I like the idea of not having it on the display at all. The Select Entire Street feature is a lot less essential now that most extraneous nodes have been removed and those that exist are very easy to remove, so that's a minimal loss. For road reports, well, it's not quite optimal, but the minimap display does help.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

UPDATE: After updating one interchange as a test subject for the removal of "to", I realize just how much this would affect. It would not only make Select Entire Street problematic for freeways, but for almost any street a freeway intersects. I cannot recommend this in good faith unless the Select Entire Street function is altered to select only segments that have the same Type. Otherwise we would be making editing a lot more troublesome, especially for new editors.

FrisbeeDog wrote:I'm not in favor of having multiple colons. It looks funny to me and is something you would never do grammatically. I know what we are doing is shorthand for directions, but I think we do need to follow some rules of punctuation usage.

What I offer though is that there is no better alternative:
"Exit 220: I-310 S: Boutte / Houma" - proposal
"Exit 220: I-310 S Boutte / Houma" - this is the current method. "I-310 S Boutte" runs together and is unclear.
"Exit 220: I-310 S, Boutte / Houma" - commas will always look completely out of place to me here.
"Exit 220: I-310 S / Boutte / Houma" - this is illogical, as it offers Boutte and Houma as options that "compete" with I-310, rather than two options that "compete" with each other as a result of I-310.
"Exit 220: I-310 S - Boutte / Houma" - this looks okay, but takes up more room than the colon. I would offer this as a secondary proposal. Technically, according to English punctuation rules, we would use an em dash (—), but this is longer and difficult to type.

Someone had said that the request was made to have the slash also execute a pause so I say we keep the current standard with one Colin have the exit number and patiently wait for Waze to update the TTS.

The current standard, like I said above, does not include a slash in any of the places I am proposing colons. I don't think a slash "works" here.

What we also have to keep in mind is that not everyone wants TTS so we want to keep the ramp name clear too and I think the additional colons makes that confusing.

Perhaps then the hyphen is the better solution here. We would have to ensure that Waze gives the hyphen a pause too. I have not tested this.

That said, using the hyphen to eliminate dual colons would be inconsistent with the colon in entrance names and pathfinders. And, really, I don't think "Exit 230: I-610 E: Slidell" is really going to confuse anyone, even if it offends a few English professors. :lol:
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby Spil » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:50 am

sketch wrote:I have recently been considering the removal of "to". I like the idea of not having it on the display at all. The Select Entire Street feature is a lot less essential now that most extraneous nodes have been removed and those that exist are very easy to remove, so that's a minimal loss. For road reports, well, it's not quite optimal, but the minimap display does help.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

UPDATE: After updating one interchange as a test subject for the removal of "to", I realize just how much this would affect. It would not only make Select Entire Street problematic for freeways, but for almost any street a freeway intersects. I cannot recommend this in good faith unless the Select Entire Street function is altered to select only segments that have the same Type. Otherwise we would be making editing a lot more troublesome, especially for new editors.

I'm in favor of the idea of removing the "to" also, and I don't see how this can really be a problem in the "Select Entire Street" function, when the proper names for the ramp and freeway segments are applied.

The freeway segments are named with the road name and direction ("I-86 E", "I-81 N", etc.); the ramp segments include that data as well as the control city. Thus, with the onramps named as in "I-90 W / Buffalo" (rather than the current "to I-90 W / Buffalo"), this still automatically prevents them from being selected with their corresponding "I-90 W" freeway segments in a "Select Entire Street" function.
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Re: Ramp naming convention proposal

Postby bgodette » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:12 am

Spil wrote:The freeway segments are named with the road name and direction ("I-86 E", "I-81 N", etc.); the ramp segments include that data as well as the control city. Thus, with the onramps named as in "I-90 W / Buffalo" (rather than the current "to I-90 W / Buffalo"), this still automatically prevents them from being selected with their corresponding "I-90 W" freeway segments in a "Select Entire Street" function.

I've got on-ramps that are BGS'd without any control city, as well as path-finder signs for multi-ramp exchanges that don't have control cities. Without the "to" the naming would end up the same as the Freeway segments.
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