Time based turn restrictions

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Time based turn restrictions

Postby bigbear3764 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:11 pm

It's been said that if it is only 3 hours in the morning rush, it is a judgement call, can go either way. If it hits 3 hours in morning and 3 hours for evening rush, then restrict it. When you restrict it, it will cut down user requests, but create system errors when people turn during off hours. I have been leaving a short RR segment not attached to any roads as a note that there is a rest turn 6-9 & 3-6. Keeps me from QW that intersection when the system flags pop up.


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Time based turn restrictions

Postby bigbear3764 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:40 pm

If we can have a notes landmark that is a different color of Plots and gas stations, and doesn't show up on client. Then I would just have to make sure I have landmarks turned on. That's why I used RR. They dont show on client and dont have to remember to turn landmarks on. Someone else had the idea on doing it this way.


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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:14 pm

The Los Angeles editors have been using small landmarks to record the time restriction. I've adopted that method in Washington DC. I'm wondering whether it would be worthwhile to standardize how we record this information.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:47 pm

I could go either way. The danger with either is that waze will change the rules and they will start to be displayed on the client.
Both have been used as annotations. Maybe this is broader question of what we should use for map annotations until waze gives a genuine annotation feature.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:30 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:Until we get time based restrictions, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Yep. I've basically given up on the time based restriction issue. The wiki is just a manifestation of the chaos on the ground. The turn restrictions in downtown DC are in a constant state of flux.

Add to that the fact that there is no way to see who is doing what with turn restriction. Thus, there is no way to initiate the local conversations needed to get everyone on the same page. So it doesn't really matter to me what the page actually says. Currently my practice is to leave time based restrictions in whatever state I find them and add a notation to the map with the actual restrictions.

Being in a rather cynical mood, I'd suggest replacing the entire section with the statement that the ability to add time based turn restriction is coming soon (right after states are added on the world server).
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:50 pm

therubinator wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?


Waze preferably wouldn't direct you into a gaping canyon based on incomplete map information, and shouldn't direct you the wrong way down a one-way street. So why should it direct you into a turn that is illegal 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour?

Huh? Waze will route you many many crazy ways based on incomplete map information. This is certainly true with one way streets. If the one way direction changes during the day then waze will route you the wrong way on the one way street.

I don't advocate setting turns as open if they are illegal for 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour. However, the argument, as I see it, for leaving them open (say if they are illegal only during one rush) is that it is much easier to determine what the waze route is taking into account if it is left open. In other words, you can make the determination on your own that waze is routing through an illegal turn and ask for alternative routes. There is no way to look at route that doesn't go through a legal turn and determine whether the route that goes through the turn is actually currently faster. I'm not saying that this reason is stronger than the reasons for restricting the turns. I'm just pointing out that a reason does exist.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:59 pm

therubinator wrote:One further point which may be useful to consider: the whole point of time-based restrictions from the point of view of urban traffic management is to control traffic flow and ease congestion (ideally). That said, from Waze's perspective it should already be rated a less than ideal route (assuming the AI is working properly). Blocking it outright wouldn't be the worst thing and would certainly eliminate the possibility of directing the user into an illegal route.

But the decision to restrict a turn from the perspective of urban traffic management is to improve the collective traffic flow. Waze should be attempting to provide the best route for a specific individual. There is no particular reason to believe that turn that improves collective flow during restricted times is less than ideal for any particular individual during the time the turn is legal.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:33 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the impact of NOT taking that turn? Is your route significantly increased?

That a good question, I'm not sure that honoring any particular turn restriction results in "significantly" increased route. Basically, if a left turn is restricted, you can typically take the detour of three right turns around the block.

However, the turn restrictions do have a significant impact on the routing. For example, take this route. The screen shot is here as the best route changes a lot:
Splitroute.jpg
Splitroute.jpg (184.38 KiB) Viewed 1338 times

You are much more likely to get the southern route down 9th street and across the 11th St or PA Ave brigdes rather than the the northern route out NY Ave if the left turn from K to 7th here is restricted. Currently, it is not restricted and I'm sometimes routed through that turn onto outbound New York Ave when the turn is illegal. When I ignore the turn, sometimes waze simply has me turn on 6th back to NY Ave, but more frequently, waze will have me go down Mass Ave to the 3rd St tunnel and take one of the southern bridges. So that one turn restriction can (sometimes depending on the traffic) result in vastly different routes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:40 pm

therubinator wrote:I disagree - I don't think you can always make the determination before it's too late. I have a good example but it's going to take me a moment to dig it up.

Oh there is no question that this logic is not universally applicable. But the whole point here is that there is no solution that will always work.
therubinator wrote:we're kind of hacking now, aren't we?
Yes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:22 pm

therubinator wrote:In this example, there's no way for the driver to know a priori that this left turn at Marlee and Eglinton is illegal from 7am-7pm. He's then forced to do a u-turn and make a left turn back onto Eglinton into busy traffic.
Sure if the turn is illegal from 7am-7pm, it should likely be marked as restricted. But the counter point is that waze is a commuting app. You don't know a priori that the left turn is illegal, you know from experience that it is illegal. Say the turn was only illegal from 7am-9am. Then if the left turn is unrestricted and waze routed you through the turn between 7am-9am you would know to go the other way. However, if you restrict the turn and waze routes you down Ellington to Oakwood at 5pm, you have no way of knowing whether the route through the now restricted turn is faster or not. Again, safety and the added inconvenience to those that aren't familiar with the turn restriction may well outweigh this advantage of leaving the turn restriction open (especially, if as Weeezer is postulating, the route through the restricted turn isn't ever all that much faster).
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