Time based turn restrictions

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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:36 pm

CBenson wrote:Sure if the turn is illegal from 7am-7pm, it should likely be marked as restricted. But the counter point is that waze is a commuting app. You don't know a priori that the left turn is illegal, you know from experience that it is illegal.


If Waze is strictly a commuting app, then I wasn't aware. You're saying then that we should damn the inexperience non-commuters and let them figure this out on their own?

CBenson wrote:Say the turn was only illegal from 7am-9am.


Then I would say leave it open and not restricted.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:22 pm

therubinator wrote:In this example, there's no way for the driver to know a priori that this left turn at Marlee and Eglinton is illegal from 7am-7pm. He's then forced to do a u-turn and make a left turn back onto Eglinton into busy traffic.
Sure if the turn is illegal from 7am-7pm, it should likely be marked as restricted. But the counter point is that waze is a commuting app. You don't know a priori that the left turn is illegal, you know from experience that it is illegal. Say the turn was only illegal from 7am-9am. Then if the left turn is unrestricted and waze routed you through the turn between 7am-9am you would know to go the other way. However, if you restrict the turn and waze routes you down Ellington to Oakwood at 5pm, you have no way of knowing whether the route through the now restricted turn is faster or not. Again, safety and the added inconvenience to those that aren't familiar with the turn restriction may well outweigh this advantage of leaving the turn restriction open (especially, if as Weeezer is postulating, the route through the restricted turn isn't ever all that much faster).
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:40 pm

therubinator wrote:I disagree - I don't think you can always make the determination before it's too late. I have a good example but it's going to take me a moment to dig it up.

Oh there is no question that this logic is not universally applicable. But the whole point here is that there is no solution that will always work.
therubinator wrote:we're kind of hacking now, aren't we?
Yes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:33 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the impact of NOT taking that turn? Is your route significantly increased?

That a good question, I'm not sure that honoring any particular turn restriction results in "significantly" increased route. Basically, if a left turn is restricted, you can typically take the detour of three right turns around the block.

However, the turn restrictions do have a significant impact on the routing. For example, take this route. The screen shot is here as the best route changes a lot:
Splitroute.jpg
(184.38 KiB) Downloaded 2301 times

You are much more likely to get the southern route down 9th street and across the 11th St or PA Ave brigdes rather than the the northern route out NY Ave if the left turn from K to 7th here is restricted. Currently, it is not restricted and I'm sometimes routed through that turn onto outbound New York Ave when the turn is illegal. When I ignore the turn, sometimes waze simply has me turn on 6th back to NY Ave, but more frequently, waze will have me go down Mass Ave to the 3rd St tunnel and take one of the southern bridges. So that one turn restriction can (sometimes depending on the traffic) result in vastly different routes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby kaeoboy » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:24 pm

The bad part of the UR is that it only tells me the date of the UR and not the time. So I can't tell if the person reporting it is in commute hours or not.

Based on the WeeeZer14's parameters, I would rather have the turns enabled, as sometimes the nearest non-restricted turn is several blocks ahead or in my case right turn - right turn - right turn and play avoid pedestrian dodge ball. Which in either case, with San Francisco drive time, can be 10-15 mins of a drive delay.

If the consensus is to disable the turn, there are so many in SF, that, I would just leave them alone until a UR report comes in and fix as needed, based on the guidelines.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:22 pm

Here's my example:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-79.43 ... s=60499843

Going south on Marlee at Eglinton, the most direct (and always legal) route is to turn right and go south on Oakwood. However, Waze continually tells me to turn left and then right down Winona (and then wrap around on Lanark back to Oakwood). However, Winona turns 1-way 38 metres down the street from 7am-7pm. So I learned the lesson once and haven't followed that advice since...despite Waze continuing to offer it.

In this example, there's no way for the driver to know a priori that this left turn at Marlee and Eglinton is illegal from 7am-7pm. He's then forced to do a u-turn and make a left turn back onto Eglinton into busy traffic.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:15 pm

CBenson wrote:Huh? Waze will route you many many crazy ways based on incomplete map information.


I did say "preferably" :)

CBenson wrote:In other words, you can make the determination on your own that waze is routing through an illegal turn and ask for alternative routes. There is no way to look at route that doesn't go through a legal turn and determine whether the route that goes through the turn is actually currently faster. I'm not saying that this reason is stronger than the reasons for restricting the turns. I'm just pointing out that a reason does exist.


I disagree - I don't think you can always make the determination before it's too late. I have a good example but it's going to take me a moment to dig it up.

CBenson wrote:But the decision to restrict a turn from the perspective of urban traffic management is to improve the collective traffic flow. Waze should be attempting to provide the best route for a specific individual.


As a pithy ad I saw recently said, "you're not stuck in traffic: you are traffic." The best route might for the individual might not actually be valid (hence, my canyon example). Again, until Waze can actually make the most informed decision possible (i.e. time-base restriction handling), we're kind of hacking now, aren't we?

I'll be honest: my motivation for discussing this is purely because I've been repeatedly directed down bad-advice turns and would really rather be sent down the "next best" route than the "best route" that's wrong/illegal.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby HandofMadness » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:08 pm

therubinator wrote:So I think there's room for improvement. This approach is black-and-white whereas some amount of discretion could be used. jhfronz's example points out a short-term restriction which, in that case, perhaps makes sense. However, if a more nuanced approach were taken say, given certain conditions then it might avoid confusion (and also make Waze more useful, rather than less, in those situations). For instance, what if the recommendation were to allow the turn if the restriction were:

  • not during rush hour (defining rush hour being slightly fuzzy, but based on the area and the volume of traffic - assumes the editor knows the area well)
  • not more than 4 hours long (for example)
  • not cumulatively more than 12 hours of the day
  • not a turn on a single-lane road (just spitballing now)


I'm simplify it to the following:
- Disallow the turn if most drivers are likely to encounter the turn while it is restricted
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:59 pm

therubinator wrote:One further point which may be useful to consider: the whole point of time-based restrictions from the point of view of urban traffic management is to control traffic flow and ease congestion (ideally). That said, from Waze's perspective it should already be rated a less than ideal route (assuming the AI is working properly). Blocking it outright wouldn't be the worst thing and would certainly eliminate the possibility of directing the user into an illegal route.

But the decision to restrict a turn from the perspective of urban traffic management is to improve the collective traffic flow. Waze should be attempting to provide the best route for a specific individual. There is no particular reason to believe that turn that improves collective flow during restricted times is less than ideal for any particular individual during the time the turn is legal.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby WeeeZer14 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:56 pm

I don't have any good examples of time based restricted turns handy, but a question for those of you who do...

Assume you have a turn which is restricted for only one of the two rush hours. All other times you can make the turn.

Assume you are driving at a non-rush hour time.

What is the impact of NOT taking that turn? Is your route significantly increased?
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