Time based turn restrictions

The place to get information and ask questions about everything to do with properly and successfully editing the Waze Map.

Use this forum for all general editing questions, and the sub-forums for specific types of Waze Map Editor features.

Moderators: Unholy, bextein

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:50 pm

therubinator wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?


Waze preferably wouldn't direct you into a gaping canyon based on incomplete map information, and shouldn't direct you the wrong way down a one-way street. So why should it direct you into a turn that is illegal 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour?

Huh? Waze will route you many many crazy ways based on incomplete map information. This is certainly true with one way streets. If the one way direction changes during the day then waze will route you the wrong way on the one way street.

I don't advocate setting turns as open if they are illegal for 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour. However, the argument, as I see it, for leaving them open (say if they are illegal only during one rush) is that it is much easier to determine what the waze route is taking into account if it is left open. In other words, you can make the determination on your own that waze is routing through an illegal turn and ask for alternative routes. There is no way to look at route that doesn't go through a legal turn and determine whether the route that goes through the turn is actually currently faster. I'm not saying that this reason is stronger than the reasons for restricting the turns. I'm just pointing out that a reason does exist.
CBenson
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm
Location: Crownsville, MD, US
Has thanked: 1069 times
Been thanked: 2355 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:41 pm

One further point which may be useful to consider: the whole point of time-based restrictions from the point of view of urban traffic management is to control traffic flow and ease congestion (ideally). That said, from Waze's perspective it should already be rated a less than ideal route (assuming the AI is working properly). Blocking it outright wouldn't be the worst thing and would certainly eliminate the possibility of directing the user into an illegal route.
therubinator
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:57 pm
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:30 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:Until we get time based restrictions, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Yep. I've basically given up on the time based restriction issue. The wiki is just a manifestation of the chaos on the ground. The turn restrictions in downtown DC are in a constant state of flux.

Add to that the fact that there is no way to see who is doing what with turn restriction. Thus, there is no way to initiate the local conversations needed to get everyone on the same page. So it doesn't really matter to me what the page actually says. Currently my practice is to leave time based restrictions in whatever state I find them and add a notation to the map with the actual restrictions.

Being in a rather cynical mood, I'd suggest replacing the entire section with the statement that the ability to add time based turn restriction is coming soon (right after states are added on the world server).
CBenson
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm
Location: Crownsville, MD, US
Has thanked: 1069 times
Been thanked: 2355 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby harling » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:27 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:There are now two questions in my mind:

1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?

2. Is the specific wording "to err on the side of caution is to sometimes recommend an illegal turn"?

I strongly disagree that to give illegal (and most likely unsafe) directions is to "err on the side of caution." Waze should only give directions that are guaranteed to be legal and safe. If a local driver knows a "short-cut" that Waze does not suggest, he can complain until Waze implements time-based restrictions; it's better than complaining that Waze cost him a $50 ticket, or a $5000 hospital bill.
harling
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: Eastern MA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:14 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:This change was noticed in October and Jhfronz responded for the motivation in this thread. It appears there was no resolution as to how to update the wording to recognize the group consensus.


Wow, that turned a little ugly, didn't it.

From earlier in that thread, jhfronz says

jhfronz wrote:Here in the US we have remote-controlled animated signs that can suddenly say "no turns" (when traffic gets weird and the traffic control operations folks want to optimize things), but allow turns the rest of the time.


So I think there's room for improvement. This approach is black-and-white whereas some amount of discretion could be used. jhfronz's example points out a short-term restriction which, in that case, perhaps makes sense. However, if a more nuanced approach were taken say, given certain conditions then it might avoid confusion (and also make Waze more useful, rather than less, in those situations). For instance, what if the recommendation were to allow the turn if the restriction were:

  • not during rush hour (defining rush hour being slightly fuzzy, but based on the area and the volume of traffic - assumes the editor knows the area well)
  • not more than 4 hours long (for example)
  • not cumulatively more than 12 hours of the day
  • not a turn on a single-lane road (just spitballing now)

...and then disallow the turn if any (?) of those conditions are met.

Previewing your new post, kentsmith9, I agree on both #1 & #2:
kentsmith9 wrote:1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?


Waze preferably wouldn't direct you into a gaping canyon based on incomplete map information, and shouldn't direct you the wrong way down a one-way street. So why should it direct you into a turn that is illegal 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour?

kentsmith9 wrote:2. Is the specific wording "to err on the side of caution is to sometimes recommend an illegal turn"?


I agree those words are not necessary and I think the best practice recommendation should allow for editor knowledge of the area as well as some of that fuzzy logic suggested above...
therubinator
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:57 pm
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby WeeeZer14 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:04 pm

With the change from "disallow" to "allow", the phrase "on the side of caution" is out of place and doesn't make sense.

I think that if we have to chose our poison, a safe, conservative, always legal approach is best. It isn't good to have Waze keep telling you to make lefts along a road if they are all disallowed for the morning rush. I think that is worse than telling someone to go a mile down the road and turn there instead of using the little side road you know if better. One is annoying while the other is frustrating.

Until we get time based restrictions, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
WeeeZer14
 
Posts: 3761
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 316 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:04 pm

{I separated my response from my post above to not confuse the question.}

On #1, I understand most Waze users are commuters. As commuters they are generally on the road in the mornings and evenings. If turn restrictions are set to control and prevent commuters from using certain roads during their commute, then we should consider having Waze "restrict" the turn for the majority of the traffic. Having the route enabled for the majority of most users that cannot take the route does not make sense to me.

If that particular turn is for another reason not based on commuter traffic or it is a very short period of time, I would say to allow the turn. Either way I recommend the editor will need to decide, but I think we should give some kind of guidelines.

San Francisco is full of hundreds of URs mostly made up of complaints that turns are not possible (time based) when Waze recommends them. For the time-based turns set to disallow always, during the times those turns are are not allowed the URs pop up that the wrong driving direction was given. Either way SF is screwed for proper navigation without a Waze solution for this problem.

For #2 I disagree with the wording "to err on the side of caution". If we keep this basic recommendation to always allow the turn, then I propose we not use those particular words. If we all get to that point I can certainly make some proposals based on the final desire for this "best practice" recommendation.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 1466 times
Been thanked: 1670 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby Mike-1323 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:51 pm

The lack of time-based restrictions on both turns and direction, as well as the lack of HOV support make Waze much less useful around here. The DC area is full of such restrictions and failing to recognize them mean that Waze can't be trusted to route through certain areas.
Mike-1323
Area Manager
Area Manager
 
Posts: 1026
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:06 pm
Location: Lorton, Va
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 186 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:50 pm

That entry was originally worded to "err on the side of caution and disallow the turn". On August 31 user Jhfrontz changed it to "allow" with the justification that the cautious information would be to allow.

Here is the original text:

Code: Select all
Waze currently has no provision for handling this type of restriction, although it is planned for the future.  In a situation where a turn is illegal during certain times of the day (e.g. No Left Turn, 7-10 am, 3-7 pm, Weekdays), it's best to err on the side of caution and disallow the turn.  This way, nobody will ever be instructed to make an illegal turn.


Here is what Jhfronz put in:

Code: Select all
Waze currently has no provision for handling this type of restriction, although it is planned for the future.  In a situation where a turn is illegal during certain times of the day (e.g. No Left Turn, 7-10 am, 3-7 pm, Weekdays), it's generally best to err on the side of caution and allow the turn.  This way, waze will always give an optimal route and the driver can decide (based on local conditions) whether or not to use it.


This change was noticed in October and Jhfronz responded for the motivation in this thread. It appears there was no resolution as to how to update the wording to recognize the group consensus.

I for one was confused by the word that to "err on the side of caution would allow the turn."

There are now two questions in my mind:

1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?

2. Is the specific wording "to err on the side of caution is to sometimes recommend an illegal turn"?
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 1466 times
Been thanked: 1670 times

Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby therubinator » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:51 pm

kaeoboy wrote:The wiki post that I've been following for turn restrictions guidelines is:

http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Best ... cted_Turns


That guideline is interesting in that it says "best to err on the side of caution and allow the turn" - which I somewhat question. Recently, I've been caught out by several of these time-based restrictions and waste minutes doing U-turns and re-routing back into traffic against Waze because this "side of caution" thought it was something I could have figured out. The end result is I've wasted time, become supremely annoyed at the app and lost some confidence that it really knows what's best (and even figure it out after giving it some guidance by avoiding that turn).

Futhermore, if these turns are restricted for 12 hours a day (and the 12 hours of the day I'm likely to be driving) it seems that Waze should be able to figure it out...but it doesn't.

Until Waze can handle these time-based restrictions, my confidence is always going to be in question.
therubinator
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:57 pm
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 0 time

PreviousNext

Return to Waze Map Editor

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users