Time based turn restrictions

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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:09 pm

At this point, I would advocate the simplest rule. Restricting the turn seems to me to be the simplest.

I'm curious what people would do here:
http://goo.gl/maps/aGc6B
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-76.95 ... s=64428633
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:58 pm

therubinator wrote:Anyway...I think when/if Waze supports time-based restrictions, it's going to have a significant impact on the routes offered in the app (for the better). These restrictions can have far reaching effects on the efficiency of the routes sometimes.

Yes! (but please let it be when not if).
I live what Mike said:
Mike-1323 wrote:The lack of time-based restrictions on both turns and direction, as well as the lack of HOV support make Waze much less useful around here. The DC area is full of such restrictions and failing to recognize them mean that Waze can't be trusted to route through certain areas.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:45 pm

therubinator wrote:If Waze is strictly a commuting app, then I wasn't aware. You're saying then that we should damn the inexperience non-commuters and let them figure this out on their own?

We can only weigh the pros and cons of restricting or not restricting the turn. There is never a perfect answer because the are always both significant pros and cons. I'm saying we should weight the commuter experience more heavily than the non-commuter experience.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:22 pm

therubinator wrote:In this example, there's no way for the driver to know a priori that this left turn at Marlee and Eglinton is illegal from 7am-7pm. He's then forced to do a u-turn and make a left turn back onto Eglinton into busy traffic.
Sure if the turn is illegal from 7am-7pm, it should likely be marked as restricted. But the counter point is that waze is a commuting app. You don't know a priori that the left turn is illegal, you know from experience that it is illegal. Say the turn was only illegal from 7am-9am. Then if the left turn is unrestricted and waze routed you through the turn between 7am-9am you would know to go the other way. However, if you restrict the turn and waze routes you down Ellington to Oakwood at 5pm, you have no way of knowing whether the route through the now restricted turn is faster or not. Again, safety and the added inconvenience to those that aren't familiar with the turn restriction may well outweigh this advantage of leaving the turn restriction open (especially, if as Weeezer is postulating, the route through the restricted turn isn't ever all that much faster).
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:40 pm

therubinator wrote:I disagree - I don't think you can always make the determination before it's too late. I have a good example but it's going to take me a moment to dig it up.

Oh there is no question that this logic is not universally applicable. But the whole point here is that there is no solution that will always work.
therubinator wrote:we're kind of hacking now, aren't we?
Yes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:33 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the impact of NOT taking that turn? Is your route significantly increased?

That a good question, I'm not sure that honoring any particular turn restriction results in "significantly" increased route. Basically, if a left turn is restricted, you can typically take the detour of three right turns around the block.

However, the turn restrictions do have a significant impact on the routing. For example, take this route. The screen shot is here as the best route changes a lot:
Splitroute.jpg
Splitroute.jpg (184.38 KiB) Viewed 2317 times

You are much more likely to get the southern route down 9th street and across the 11th St or PA Ave brigdes rather than the the northern route out NY Ave if the left turn from K to 7th here is restricted. Currently, it is not restricted and I'm sometimes routed through that turn onto outbound New York Ave when the turn is illegal. When I ignore the turn, sometimes waze simply has me turn on 6th back to NY Ave, but more frequently, waze will have me go down Mass Ave to the 3rd St tunnel and take one of the southern bridges. So that one turn restriction can (sometimes depending on the traffic) result in vastly different routes.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:59 pm

therubinator wrote:One further point which may be useful to consider: the whole point of time-based restrictions from the point of view of urban traffic management is to control traffic flow and ease congestion (ideally). That said, from Waze's perspective it should already be rated a less than ideal route (assuming the AI is working properly). Blocking it outright wouldn't be the worst thing and would certainly eliminate the possibility of directing the user into an illegal route.

But the decision to restrict a turn from the perspective of urban traffic management is to improve the collective traffic flow. Waze should be attempting to provide the best route for a specific individual. There is no particular reason to believe that turn that improves collective flow during restricted times is less than ideal for any particular individual during the time the turn is legal.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:50 pm

therubinator wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:1. Does the group generally agree with the philosophy of the statement that Waze should give the best route and let the user decide if it is legal?


Waze preferably wouldn't direct you into a gaping canyon based on incomplete map information, and shouldn't direct you the wrong way down a one-way street. So why should it direct you into a turn that is illegal 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour?

Huh? Waze will route you many many crazy ways based on incomplete map information. This is certainly true with one way streets. If the one way direction changes during the day then waze will route you the wrong way on the one way street.

I don't advocate setting turns as open if they are illegal for 50% of the day and 100% during rush hour. However, the argument, as I see it, for leaving them open (say if they are illegal only during one rush) is that it is much easier to determine what the waze route is taking into account if it is left open. In other words, you can make the determination on your own that waze is routing through an illegal turn and ask for alternative routes. There is no way to look at route that doesn't go through a legal turn and determine whether the route that goes through the turn is actually currently faster. I'm not saying that this reason is stronger than the reasons for restricting the turns. I'm just pointing out that a reason does exist.
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:30 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:Until we get time based restrictions, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Yep. I've basically given up on the time based restriction issue. The wiki is just a manifestation of the chaos on the ground. The turn restrictions in downtown DC are in a constant state of flux.

Add to that the fact that there is no way to see who is doing what with turn restriction. Thus, there is no way to initiate the local conversations needed to get everyone on the same page. So it doesn't really matter to me what the page actually says. Currently my practice is to leave time based restrictions in whatever state I find them and add a notation to the map with the actual restrictions.

Being in a rather cynical mood, I'd suggest replacing the entire section with the statement that the ability to add time based turn restriction is coming soon (right after states are added on the world server).
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Re: Time based turn restrictions

Postby CBenson » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:47 pm

I could go either way. The danger with either is that waze will change the rules and they will start to be displayed on the client.
Both have been used as annotations. Maybe this is broader question of what we should use for map annotations until waze gives a genuine annotation feature.
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