This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

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This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby skbun » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Hey, all.

Any thoughts on how to prevent the off-and-on you'll see in this livemap link? There's no crossover or tie I can think of that will reasonably do it.

To be honest, I'm not even certain it should be disallowed. There's often a big backup on I-5 N around this curve, and although convoluted, it does get around it, often, and since it's hitting at least one city street, it's technically not 'just' an off-and-on.

http://www.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=12&la ... g=54301579
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:59 pm

Livemap with the navigation addon is usually enough because you can quickly narrow down to the instruction you are looking for, but it can't take into account time-of-day adjustments yet, nor, as you stated, can it give 3 routes. But the nav add-on makes it very clear the type and "written name" of each navigation instruction which is sent to the app. Can't test abbreviations though.

The call to the routing server does accept an argument for "time offset from now" which makes it calculate a route for a time in the future, which can then take into account historical traffic conditions, but there's currently no way to do that in the livemap.

The "set as start point" has been in the app since version 3.1 or something close. It was in 2.4, removed in 3.0 and then brought back pretty quickly due to community demand.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby skbun » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:22 pm

khaytsus wrote:I might try one of those navigation emulation things and see what happens, since live routing never seems to give the same route to the client as on the website.


Hey there! :) Thanks for taking a look and fixing!

You are definitely right about the livemap, and client getting different results. At a minimum, the query on Livemap is limited to two results, and the client can get up to three.

By the way, are you aware of the 'set as start point' feature on the Waze client? I wasn't, and just found out about it in some other random thread a few days ago. Touch-hold on your start segment, click the > arrow, and on the information screen you get, click 'More ->'. One of the options is 'set as start point'. I've found that EXTREMELY useful for this kind of real world troubleshooting.

That, combined with clicking the turn instruction at the top once navigation begins will tell you all the instructions you'll get on the route, start to finish. Unless I actually need the TTS instructions spoken, this is usually enough for me.

If there ARE navigation emulation tools, can you point me to one? (PM is fine if need be.) I could use one in rare instances on complex intersections.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby khaytsus » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:28 pm

skbun,

Sorry I made edits post your completion, but there was at least one segment that wasn't connected that needed to be, and a parking lot segment that wasn't connected either, was "under" several others.

So if you meant the parking lot "trick" to be on the north side too, you'll want to modify there and add it.

Complicated trickery, but hopefully is all connected properly. :) I might try one of those navigation emulation things and see what happens, since live routing never seems to give the same route to the client as on the website.

Cheers.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby CBenson » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:57 am

I see, it does make sense as a mechanism to avoid MPs. And any undue attention to the complexity could certainly be a problem.
However, the following surprises me:
skbun wrote:* The only nav advice Waze will ever give a person coming from I-5 N is to take the left ramp of the two, and in the context of this exit, it's 'straight ahead'. . . . The placement of the bowtie is right in front of the actual road split so the TTS shows the right distance.

I'm surprised drivers coming from I-5 N get any instruction at all there. I would have thought that continuing on the ramp type segments would make that route the best continuation and you wouldn't get an instruction.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby MiltH » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:45 am

This is brilliant, and should be in the wiki (in some form).

I hope at some point many of these 'hacking the client' methods will be cataloged in the wiki.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby skbun » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:04 am

CBenson wrote:I'm curious about the advantages of this configuration? Why the parking lot segment rather than the turn restriction?


Yeah, it IS intentional - both the design and the presence of the parking lot road, and there are definitely advantages to this over the turn restriction. A lot of this comes from experience, and I typically create these on cloverleafs, or 'freeways with off and on slip roads'.

With this bowtie crossover...
* The two parallel roads are so close together, at the 2m zoom, that on a client, it just looks like 'one slip road'. Completely transparent to a client user.
* The only nav advice Waze will ever give a person coming from I-5 N is to take the left ramp of the two, and in the context of this exit, it's 'straight ahead'. (I'll have to show a maps.google.com link to explain, but I've driven it. See http://goo.gl/maps/IFqjs ). The placement of the bowtie is right in front of the actual road split so the TTS shows the right distance. The parking lot road is there to assure that there is not an off-and-on nav suggestion (going back to I-5), but if someone DOES do it, it won't generate a UR either.
* A person coming from S 38th St will get two options, with the correct TTS: either 'stay to the left, to SR-16...', or 'stay to the right, to I-5 N / I-705 N...', thus the careful placing of the fork and the angles.
* If we do this 'the other way' with a single segment and turn restriction: when enough clever drivers do an off-and-on on one of these slip roads, I've seen from experience that inexperienced editors will go to such a junction with a UR, see 'Restricted turn might be allowed', and invariably will allow the turn - meaning 'allow the off and on' - because it's in theory possible, and we're back to an off and on issue again, so it goes in circles.

When I do THIS with a ramp, especially if locked down, this is generally the end of it. Everything works properly, and we don't get turn allow URs, 'incorrect junction' errors because of bad TTS instructions, or circular edits. I did one of these on a cloverleaf on I-405 in August as a testbed, and never saw a UR generated by problems with the bowtie.

(Apologies for how long it took to get back to you all! I hadn't subscribed the topic, so I just plain missed replies after the initial couple.)
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby CBenson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:46 pm

If you use a ramp and a turn restriction. Couldn't you then simplify the whole thing by eliminating the four segments and bringing all four junction nodes together as one? I'm not seeing the point of the four segments except to make the one a parking lot segment. And I don't really understand the advantage of the parking lot segment.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby khaytsus » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:26 pm

CBenson wrote:I'm curious about the advantages of this configuration? Why the parking lot segment rather than the turn restriction?

I missed that one entirely. I'd think he meant to use Ramp there but I'd have to trace it out.

Haven't heard back from the OP, I wonder if he's still working on this.
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Re: This off-and-on isn't difficult at all

Postby CBenson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:28 pm

I'm curious about the advantages of this configuration? Why the parking lot segment rather than the turn restriction?
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