Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby DaveHolzmann » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:30 pm

One more thought/question...

By splitting Grant Rd. wouldn't that better-clarify which direction traffic is backed-up?
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby DaveHolzmann » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:27 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Waze keeps track of the directions and shows which direction is backed up in the app visually.


I saw that just after posting. However, in that particular area it's not at all unusual to have traffic back up completely in one direction and partially in the other... and reverse the ratio at other times. Or be completely clear in one direction and at a virtual standstill in the other. All of this due to the excessive amounts of traffic combined with signals and lanes that can't handle the load.

AlanOfTheBerg wrote: It could add better clarity, especially when it comes to user-posted reports if they include the direction. For these in-town roads, it is not normal to add the cardinal driving direction to the road name when split. Only highway and up get that.


I realize it's not "normal" to split in-town roads. And adding cardinal direction to the road name would undoubtedly confuse more than clarify. BUT... I believe Waze is, in fact, snapping real traffic to the PLot road... when the traffic gets congested. This, in turn, screws up the directions for the driver(s)... especially since there are (appropriately) no names for the PLot roads. And gives cause for URs.

If the road was split, I don't believe the congestion would have the same effect, since the real road would be in the middle of the lanes going each direction. (i.e. Heading NE on Grant toward ECR, when Grant spreads out to 5 lanes, instead of the furthest lane in that direction being 4 lanes away, it would only by 1.5 lanes away... giving the Waze server(s) cause to keep the (semi-parked/congested) vehicles on Grant instead of snapping them to the (closer) PLot road.

A reasonably close area I've seen an in-town road split is just a few miles NW on ECR. So, while it's not considered "normal", it's also not unheard of. :)
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby DaveHolzmann » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:38 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
DaveHolzmann wrote:Of COURSE Waze will snap to the PLot road in that situation. It's significantly closer to the GPS tracks.

If the Waze driver is following a route, Waze will not snap from the current route unless the GPS track is a significant distance like 50 feet or more from the lane Waze last assumed.


When FOLLOWING a route - that is, while still in motion - I know exactly what you're talking about... have experienced that a number of times myself. (For me it's when heading S on 280 and taking the El Monte exit, while Waze wants to keep me on 280 to 85N.)

However, when traffic gets congested, and comes to a complete halt, as I recall, I have been "snapped" to the PLot road that's closer.

kentsmith9 wrote: Is it possible that the URs you are seeing are from the irritated user who does not think we should be mapping the PLot roads in the first place and he is just trying to disrupt your fun in Waze with these reports? :shock:


Yes, that ^ is definitely a possibility. :roll: But he's not saying (or doing) anything in a way that ties him to comments.

Still, I don't imagine he's the only one who gets frustrated when dealing with congestion and then adding to that the irritation of Waze saying (in essence) "take 2 extra turns to get yourself out of the parking lot I (Waze) have just put you in because you had to stop for a while in the traffic congestion."
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby DaveHolzmann » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:50 am

jasonh300 wrote:Those URs are probably from the same troll who kept deleting your Parking Lot roads.
Likely true.

jasonh300 wrote:Unless there's something drastically different there IRL from what the aerials show, there's no way they're getting these errors unless they're using faulty equipment.


As I've noted, I recall seeing that effect... but only when traffic is seriously congested, not when it's still moving.

jasonh300 wrote:Was there a purple track in the UR showing them in the gas station?

No. I rarely see the purple tracks near the URs - for ANY URs. Sometimes they seem to bear some resemblance to the potential problem area, other times, the tracks are so far removed, they're of no value whatsoever.

jasonh300 wrote:You could try splitting it, but if the troll leaving the URs is hell-bent on getting the parking lot roads removed, it's not going to fix anything.


Right, in terms of satisfying the troll. But, if it really does do what I think it will do - eliminate the problem of congested traffic re-snapping to the PLot - then I think it will indeed have fixed something of value for some number of Wazers. Real traffic that's congested will really be reported as congested. And then it will clear up as soon as the congestion is relieved. And gas station customers will not falsely drag down the real traffic, nor will the real congested traffic have to "navigate out of the PLot" which they were never really in in the first place.

jasonh300 wrote:If anything should be split, it should be El Camino Real with all those left turns across a median that can get pretty wide. However, there's no problem there that indicates that anything should be changed either.


Agreed. Don't "fix" something that is neither broken nor being complained about.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:03 pm

I don't think anyone from Waze ever said not to map POI's. It was the Waze community's recommendation not to map POI's in the Waze map if your country has good POI data via the other search options in the client (Google, Bing, FourSquare, Yelp, etc.)

Here is why POI's should generally not be mapped in the Waze Map Editor:

* There is no ability to add POI details that show in the client with a search - phone number, address, etc.
* Since there is no ability to add these details it makes it difficult to determine which location you want to go to for common searches. Eg. if you search for McDonalds is it helpful to see the street address in the search results to help you determine which location you want to go to. Also very helpful to click on the phone number if you want to call to see if the POI is open, etc. The external providers POI data contains these details.
* If some editors are mapping some POI's, these POI's will show up in the default Waze search results even if they are hundreds or thousands of miles away. Eg, if someone adds a POI for McDonalds in Oregon and I am searching in San Diego my Waze client shows me the location in Oregon in the Waze results instead of showing one of the better options that shows relevant data.
* POI's that are added need to be maintained. Restaurants, stores, etc are always changing. If the POI is added and it changes, the data is wrong until someone finds and edits it. There are already great sources of this data that are being updated, why do we need yet another source of POI data?

Really in countries such as the USA only Parks and large POI landmarks that should show in the client map view should be mapped. Leave the rest out.

Again, this may not be relevant for other counties that don't have good POI data via the other providers.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:27 pm

Why not just use a Parking Lot Landmark if you are concerned about traffic suppression when Wazers are in the lot?

Also, unless things have changes if the last segment that a Wazer was on was a Parking lot road traffic reports should be suppressed as long as the Wazer is not snapped to a non parking lot road segment.

Although my long standing opinion is that the client should be less snappy. If a Wazer is driving anywhere that is not mapped there should be no jams created. Should be no need for any of this mapping/landmarking of Parking Lots to avoid false traffic jams. Waze needs to focus more resources on fixing this mess without the community having to over-map.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:29 am

Yes, sometimes there are benefits to roads in parking lots, but there are also downsides:

* The client may instruct you turn to onto or off of a parking lot road(s) using an adjacent street name, so the directions are technically incorrect. This would not be an issue if we named the parking lot roads in some manner but we were unable to come to some agreement as a community on naming.
* When parking lots start to get mapped, Wazers see the parking lots mapped and then start to map more parking lots. Then they tend to get carried away and map every aisle.
* Every segment of parking lot road needs to have turns set correctly. Often these are not done correctly leading to Update requests to 'fix' the problem.
* More road segments = more data that Waze needs to store and serve to the clients. With vector graphics the affect is not so great, but it's something.
* Yes, it can help with learning but so can finding a neighborhood with real roads that are not frequently traveled may be a better option. Even minute that we are spending as editors working on Parking Lots is time that we could be spending on other more valuable mapping activities.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Although with my unscientific study - most time when any Parking lot mapping is done it ends up creating more Update Requests with problems it creates vs. problems it solves. Many times this is due to incorrect mapping and turn restrictions but other times it's just the parking lot mapping in general.

I think some of this is a perception issue. If Wazers don't get direction to the exact location of the POI in the parking lot and they see it's not mapped they understand and find their way. If the lot is mapped they then expect it to work perfectly and when it doesn't they put in an update request.

This also explains why some editors just delete all of the parking lot roads. They often cause more mapping issues in the editor than they solve.

We know that Parking Lot landmarks look ugly in the client and don't suppress traffic jams BUT they do seem to suppress future map problems. A lot of parking lots get mapped since Waze generates a map problem when a Wazer has Waze running when they drive the parking lot from one mapped road to another. This prompts editors to map the lot. When a landmark is placed it stops pointing editors to the lot to map it to supposedly fix a map problem that is auto generated by Waze.

In any case, this whole thing with parking lots, suppressing traffic jams by parking lots, suppressing map problems in parking lots, etc. is a huge waste of editing time by the community. Map it, fix the problems caused by mapping it, delete it, landmark it, lock it, unlock it, delete the landmark, delete the mapped roads just to start all over again. Waze needs to address this and provide a long term fix and better guidance on what level of mapping is necessary for their solution to work properly.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:41 pm

Also be aware that Wazers that are driving in unnamed Parking Lot roads where turns are being instructed will generally have roads that are named announced as the name of the parking lot road where the turn is being instructed. Basically Waze will use the first named road later in the instruction list incorrectly.

This is one of the big problems with mapping parking lots. The directions are then technically incorrect.
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Re: Contribution frustrated in Mountain View, CA

Postby gettingthere » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:52 pm

I agree that it sounds very unlikely that Wazers driving on the main road, on a route are being snapped to the Parking Lot roads. The Waze application has a very strong snap-to-route.
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