road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Image

Moderators: Unholy, arthurohara, YanisKyr, davidg666

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby cw1998 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:32 pm

This must have been talked about on at least three separate occasions today! :lol:
I agree with all four of your points. Also worth noting that even if you don't give townland names for more rural segments, L numbers should also be included where possible. Is that correct?

(In most cases this would mean checking each junction in GSV, so I don't where if we reached a conclusion on that part.)

About the script and geometry data. After talking with Tim today, I am going to rebuild all the sets with the structure changed slightly so that it will work with Tim's script out of the box - rather than every editor making one small change to Tim's script to make it show our data sets.
Sure, it is more work on our side when it comes to making the modified sets, but it's one off work, so not a problem. I'll hopefully get this done next week sometime! I'll also put together a friendly web page to help editors download their desired set.
cw1998
Area Manager
Area Manager
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:02 am
Location: Waringstown, Northern Ireland
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 33 times

road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:19 am

What do we all think about dropping the practice of naming back roads after the townlands they pass through?

As all editors know, it takes a long time to work out townland boundaries when naming back roads.

One idea is to mark most back roads as having no name (or just Lxxxx if the L-number is known) and just to work out the townland name and use that for back roads that join a main road.

Another idea would be to leave *all* backroads unnamed.

So, ideas please: we could do:

  1. continue with the current practice: name all all back roads after the townlands they pass through.
  2. mark all back roads that don't have a name of their own as unnamed (this is common in mainland Britain).
  3. give back roads that join a main road (Nxx, Rxxx or primary street with a name) a name that is the same as the townland they are in at the point at which they leave the main road.
I'll collate responses and talk to the other CMs so we can make a decision about this...

++David \ davidg666

[edit: swapped two words and removed one where I was typing faster than I could think :) ]
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:16 pm

I would vote for option 3, then 2 then 1.

I think it's useful for the user to have *some* name in their directions when they're directed off a main road, just to give them a sense of orientation rather than a feeling that they're being directed into some unknown space. It shouldn't be too much work for editors to work out the townland name just along main roads.

Other editors: please chime in, so we can get a representative opinion from the editing community.

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:33 pm

arthurohara wrote:In the longer term, hopefully it can be made easier to determine.

Chris uses a script written by Tim combined with publicly-available townland geometry data to show townland boundaries in the editor. I haven't tried this myself yet, but that could well be the easiest way yet of determining townland boundaries.

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:33 pm

lsin023 wrote:Naming Local roads has been discussed for years now in different threads (last here) but unfortunately no consensus has been found. So from time to time, a new thread appears with a different name! :)

Yes and no :) I guess our decided-on consensus never actually changed from "name local roads after townlands, changing name at a townland boundary", because that's what's in the wiki (which we can't actually change anyway until we migrate it to Wazeopedia, but that's another story...).

In practice, I add L-numbers if they're visible in SV or when I see them when out and about on the roads. I don't think L-numbers are that useful when there's no sign at the end of the road.

When I'm mapping a new area, I start off by adding roads and leaving them red, then coming back later to name them. If I see a road in the editor that's red or that has "no name" checked, then I consider that road to be incomplete and needing further work, although that said, a road that's actually in the map (and connected) in any form is a lot better than no road at all.

lsin023 wrote:[Road/street name] as found in Waze Street View or through car windscreen, otherwise townland name (if not available then Tick "No name" option and not leaving unnamed red segment) as:
  • Case A: only one road through the townland => townland name
  • Case B: 2 or more roads within the townland => townland name on 1 segment at least
  • Case C: Townland boundaries => Tick "No name" option (and not leaving unnamed red segment), Waze will still provide navigation instructions according to Road name inheritance rules

Umm, doesn't this require doing a full consultation with a townland map (or similar) and then counting how many road segments cross each townland?
lsin023 wrote:In short, we add the information (Road number/name, townland) when it's available (or Editor has time..), leave blank when not and tick "No name" when there's no information at all (or confusing one).

"when it's available (or Editor has time..)" is definitely the most practical approach :)

I favour adding full townland information if practical, but I think it's more realistic to just require editors to add townland information where reasonable, especially if we're asking editors (such as our UK friends) to help out with the map. I do consider "no name" on a road to indicate a road that's incomplete in some way (except for special cases, such as roundabout segments).
lsin023 wrote:I would also invite editors to use Tim's wonderful script WME Geometries

I haven't tried this out yet, but I want to. Any chance of a cheat sheet for setting it up?

I'm not sure if my computer can handle the extra load though - it already struggles with a simple WME setup (with just a couple of extensions, such as Toolbox and Colour Highlights).

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:39 pm

cw1998 wrote:Effort 2 - All of us have already put in lots of work adding in the present segments with townland names, I feel this would go to waste if we had to go around them all and remove them/join segments etc.

IF we decide to make townland names optional, I certainly don't think we should go back and remove any existing ones! I do like having them, and I think they also give the map are more human touch for people who live in country areas. They're probably not especially useful for navigating, especially if you're not at all familiar with the area, so their main drawback is the time and effort required to look up the names and boundaries of each one.

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:01 pm

cw1998 wrote:
davidg666 wrote:Any chance of a cheat sheet for setting it up?

I could write up a short tutorial style thread for the Ireland forum?

If you could, that'd be really useful - thanks!

cw1998 wrote:Which area are you working on, and I'll create a clipped down file of that area for you to try out?

What's a good size to be useful? If it's pretty small, then as big a lump as is practical in Co Clare, south east of Kilfenora. If as big as half a county is practical, then how about the southern half of Co Clare?

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:38 am

cw1998 wrote:Was any consensus made on this?

Err, no - however, we have four different opinions that I think can be combined into one. I'm leaning towards "optional and not mandatory" for back roads but mandatory as the stated policy for where they meet main roads (major highway, minor highway and primary street) .

Assuming we do change the policy a bit, we'll have to either make it a pinned post here in the forum or migrate our wiki pages to Wazeopedia, since we can't edit them any more where they are. We need a volunteer to do this...

I got distracted by your good work on getting townland boundaries to show in WME. If it's easy to explain to people then that might be a good argument for keeping the existing policy.

That said, I think a lot of editors still won't go to the trouble of installing an extension and downloading data files to show the townland boundaries - although these would be the same editors who don't bother naming roads in the first place and don't make working junctions...

The townland boundary display work should pretty useful for cleaning up existing areas that have roads that are either unnamed or mis-named, not to mention mapping new areas and naming the roads at the same time (rather than coming back to name them later, which is what I tend to do at the moment).

++David
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:53 am

Kevintiobraid wrote:Thanks for clarifying. In the meantime I've done what I should have done originally, and read the Ireland wiki guidelines for naming roads.
I'll carry on naming as "Lxxx Townland". (no hyphen? Makes Kate and other voices pause between the number and the name)

Thanks for reading the wiki guidelines! It's better than having oddly-named roads depending on who named them.

It would be best if you could find out the townland name (as well as the Lxxx name) where possible.

Kevintiobraid wrote:Regarding townlands in general, agree with your points 1, 2, 3 on the aesthetics and completeness of the map...I guess thats why I'm sitting here editing at 11pm :geek: On point 4, Search, I think this is where Eircodes will make townlands, and unfortunately also local knowledge, redundant, as more people use them. Delivery drivers and taxi drivers will use them for navigation. I would probably use them if I was visiting an unfamiliar place. It will get you as close as you can to the exact location, instead of vaguely in the area if a townland is used.

It is good that eircodes can be used for navigation, however a lot of postal addresses in country addresses contain townland names and not everybody uses eircodes at the moment.

Another good reason for using townland names is that some county councils (south Galway, for example) put townland names (as well as Lxxx numbers) on the little white signs at the ends of roads. I think it's very reassuring for a driver to be told (for example) to "turn right onto L1234 Townland North", compared to just being told "turn right".

We're thinking of relaxing the townland requirement a bit (that's how this thread got started...) but haven't made a decision yet. Watch this space...

++David \ davidg666
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

Re: road naming: townland boundaries for back roads

Postby davidg666 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:56 pm

cw1998 wrote:Was any consensus made on this?

I think there is now!

Here's the decision (if I've got the wrong end of the stick from today's discussions, feel free to point out which end I should have got :) ):

The decision is to go with a compromise solution that keeps a decent amount of map quality while reducing the editing effort a bit. For roads outside of towns/cities/villages that are below MH and mH (so of type Street and Primary Street, usually numbered Lxxxx/Lxxxx (and sometimes even Lxxxxx-xx in some counties)):

  1. In all cases where there's a sign at the end of the road with an L number (eg L4321), start the road number with this, whether or not any other part of the name is known.
  2. If the road has a known name (eg "Cashel Rd") make that the name, prefixed by the L-number, if known.
  3. If the road joins another road of type minor highway or higher (R-road or N-road), then always give it the same name as the townland it falls in - prefixing with the L-number, of known.
  4. If the road doesn't join another road of type minor highway or higher, then optionally include the townland name. It would be nice if it is included, but since it can take quite a lot of work/time to determine the townland name, this is no longer mandatory.
For help determining townland names, Chris (cw1998) has been processing townland boundary data and knows how to use it with a script Tim (Timbones) has created to display the boundaries and names in the editor.

One further note: don't ever use the Google road names visible on Street View - only use road names shown on street signs or legally usable from other sources. This is partly because we can't legally use other sources for street names and partly because many of them (including Google's street names) are often completely wrong.

Yet another note: inside towns and cities (less so villages), most streets have assigned names, so it shouldn't be necessary to use townland names inside cities and towns. Villages (especially small ones) rarely have assigned street names.

One other further note: Street View images are often quite old (many are as old as 2009), so L-road signs are often not visible there, even though by now, the signs have often been placed by councils since the SV images were made. Never remove an Lxxxx number, even if the sign isn't visible in Street View, since an editor with local knowledge may have added it because they have seen the signs in person.

++David \ davidg666
davidg666
Waze Local Champs
Waze Local Champs
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:58 pm
Location: Wicklow, Ireland
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 202 times

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users