davidg666 wrote:[I plan to update some parts of the Ireland section of the wiki in the near future - but before I do that, I hope to discuss the changes first in case there's any disagreement, since some of the changes I propose haven't been covered before and I think different editors amongst have different ways of doing things]

Second: Naming roads:

1. all M, N, R roads to have letter and number first, followed by space and road name if there is one. Examples: “M9”, “R924”, “R726 Main St”

Agree. I never have the voice navigation turned on. Did you mention previously that "N" is spoken as "North"? Is there any way to address this for Ireland if this is the case? Kind of a big deal.

all M, N, R roads to have “no city” checked unless they run through (not just past) a city/town/village.

Agree for parts distant from towns/villages, but not if immediately adjacent. My reasoning is that if you get a traffic update that there is an accident on the M8, and your events radius is set high, that accident could be more than one junction ahead of you. You might navigate off the road onto minor roads too early to avoid the accident. If the update told you the accident was on the M8 at Fermoy, you would know better exactly what is happening and make a better decision based on this. Also once you name two sections of road, the update will tell you that the accident is on the M8 between Fermoy and Mitchelstown if the particular section is unnamed.
In summary, if a road runs adjacent to a town, it should be named with the town i feel (this will mostly occur on M and N roads i think)

for L-roads, put L and number first if (and only if) a sign with the L number appears at the start of the road.

Disagree. If a road has a name, what reason would there be not to use it? Signs are currently being rolled out across the country, so it may well get a sign eventually. I've seen several roads with a sign only at one end of it. Many people edit to add townlands to rural road names and they don't appear on signs anywhere. I know the road name doesn't appear on addresses, but it is still reassuring.

for rural roads of “Street” or “Primary Street” type, use the townland name for the road if there is no other name.

Agree, but should include with L1234 name (where available) in similar manner to towns/villages
After all, people will likely look to navigate to a placename, so that placename should be used on all rural roads, not just the ones without L numbers

davidg666 wrote: Yes, "N" is spoken as North - this annoys me. I've mentioned this in a few other forums recently, and I think some countries do have some TTS overrides for their situation - but I haven't worked out how to make it happen for us. I know South Africa has the same problem - they also have N roads like us.

I did see some suggestions that putting the N in quotes would make it be pronounced as "N" rather than "north" but I've done some experiments recently on a ramp onto the N4 with both single ('N') and double ('N") quotes, but it made no difference.

I'll probably also add a note that divided roads (motorways and dual carriageways) should have the appropriate cardinal direction (N, S, E, W) appended to the road name for each carriageway - and just separated by a space (like we're already doing at the moment), rather than in brackets (like they're doing in the UK). I think the no-brackets version looks better.

No brackets definitely looks better. Cardinals are vital to include in the finished wiki (and maps obviously). Kinda surprised about the "N=north"

I'm in two minds about this one, because I have noticed that traffic reports (haven't seen that many accident reports) often include the name of the nearest town/city in the report, even when the town/city isn't in any segment of the motorway. Reports of heavy traffic on the M50 usually do this - although maybe it only works when the town/city is physically quite close to the motorway segment in question.

Conversely, adding the town/city name to a road that doesn't definitely go through the town/city makes the city polygon on the client look bloated and out of shape, which is a bit of a shame.

Maybe we need to do some experimenting to see how Waze actually behaves - or just look to see what they do in other countries.

I only meant for roads where the motorway or main road is pretty close to town. More than half a mile or so wouldn't be suitable, as you suggest.
Have found the opposite regarding "in the neighbourhood" but i suppose again it is down to local conditions. If the local editor notes the location of motorway isn't being named in reports they should fill in a town on the road name; if the neighbourhood is named, don't label the road.
i wouldn't worry too much about the shape of the polygon, we have such odd shaped towns anyway! you should look at some cities in USA: they are pure rectangles!

davidg666 wrote: Oh, I didn't mean *not* to use the road name - I think that if a road has a name, then it should *always* be put there; all I meant was that if there is a sign with an L-number, than should appear *in addition* to the road name. The place name is important because (as you say) that's what people will be likely to look for. The L-number is handy because when the instructions say "turn left at L1234 Knocknagroagh" and they see a sign saying "L1234" on a side-road then they know they're turning at the right place.

Assume we're on the same page now (are we?) I'll be sure to make this point less ambiguous.

We are on same page!

bprob wrote:

davidg666 wrote:all M, N, R roads to have letter and number first, followed by space and road name if there is one. Examples: “M9”, “R924”, “R726 Main St”

Agree. I never have the voice navigation turned on. Did you mention previously that "N" is spoken as "North"? Is there any way to address this for Ireland if this is the case? Kind of a big deal.

Yes, "N" is spoken as North - this annoys me. I've mentioned this in a few other forums recently, and I think some countries do have some TTS overrides for their situation - but I haven't worked out how to make it happen for us. I know South Africa has the same problem - they also have N roads like us.

I did see some suggestions that putting the N in quotes would make it be pronounced as "N" rather than "north" but I've done some experiments recently on a ramp onto the N4 with both single ('N') and double ('N") quotes, but it made no difference.

I'll probably also add a note that divided roads (motorways and dual carriageways) should have the appropriate cardinal direction (N, S, E, W) appended to the road name for each carriageway - and just separated by a space (like we're already doing at the moment), rather than in brackets (like they're doing in the UK). I think the no-brackets version looks better.

bprob wrote:

davidg666 wrote:all M, N, R roads to have “no city” checked unless they run through (not just past) a city/town/village.

Agree for parts distant from towns/villages, but not if immediately adjacent. My reasoning is that if you get a traffic update that there is an accident on the M8, and your events radius is set high, that accident could be more than one junction ahead of you. You might navigate off the road onto minor roads too early to avoid the accident. If the update told you the accident was on the M8 at Fermoy, you would know better exactly what is happening and make a better decision based on this. Also once you name two sections of road, the update will tell you that the accident is on the M8 between Fermoy and Mitchelstown if the particular section is unnamed.
In summary, if a road runs adjacent to a town, it should be named with the town i feel (this will mostly occur on M and N roads i think)

I'm in two minds about this one, because I have noticed that traffic reports (haven't seen that many accident reports) often include the name of the nearest town/city in the report, even when the town/city isn't in any segment of the motorway. Reports of heavy traffic on the M50 usually do this - although maybe it only works when the town/city is physically quite close to the motorway segment in question.

Conversely, adding the town/city name to a road that doesn't definitely go through the town/city makes the city polygon on the client look bloated and out of shape, which is a bit of a shame.

Maybe we need to do some experimenting to see how Waze actually behaves - or just look to see what they do in other countries.

bprob wrote:

davidg666 wrote:for L-roads, put L and number first if (and only if) a sign with the L number appears at the start of the road.

Disagree. If a road has a name, what reason would there be not to use it? Signs are currently being rolled out across the country, so it may well get a sign eventually. I've seen several roads with a sign only at one end of it. Many people edit to add townlands to rural road names and they don't appear on signs anywhere. I know the road name doesn't appear on addresses, but it is still reassuring.

davidg666 wrote:for rural roads of “Street” or “Primary Street” type, use the townland name for the road if there is no other name.

Agree, but should include with L1234 name (where available) in similar manner to towns/villages
After all, people will likely look to navigate to a placename, so that placename should be used on all rural roads, not just the ones without L numbers

Oh, I didn't mean *not* to use the road name - I think that if a road has a name, then it should *always* be put there; all I meant was that if there is a sign with an L-number, than should appear *in addition* to the road name. The place name is important because (as you say) that's what people will be likely to look for. The L-number is handy because when the instructions say "turn left at L1234 Knocknagroagh" and they see a sign saying "L1234" on a side-road then they know they're turning at the right place.

Assume we're on the same page now (are we?) I'll be sure to make this point less ambiguous.

++David \ davidg666

bprob wrote:

davidg666 wrote: Yes, "N" is spoken as North - this annoys me. [...]

No brackets definitely looks better. Cardinals are vital to include in the finished wiki (and maps obviously). Kinda surprised about the "N=north"

Since clearing my TTS cache (I think I mentioned this in one of the other threads) the N-pronunciation seems a lot better. Most of the time, "N4 N" gets pronounced as "enn four north" (as it should) but I have had a couple of cases where that doesn't happen (I came across something like "J2 N2 mumble" the other night where the "N2" was still pronounced as "north two") - but we can possibly work around these cases by changing the naming. Naming of motorway junctions/intersections/exits seems to be a bit inconsistent at the moment anyway, but I think I'll stay away from that area for now...

bprob wrote:I only meant for roads where the motorway or main road is pretty close to town. More than half a mile or so wouldn't be suitable, as you suggest.
Have found the opposite regarding "in the neighbourhood" but i suppose again it is down to local conditions. If the local editor notes the location of motorway isn't being named in reports they should fill in a town on the road name; if the neighbourhood is named, don't label the road.
i wouldn't worry too much about the shape of the polygon, we have such odd shaped towns anyway! you should look at some cities in USA: they are pure rectangles!

I agree with you here now; I'm quite happy to have freeway/major highway segments have a city/town name for a section where they come pretty close to the city/town. I notice traffic reports on the M50 quote their adjacent suburb names pretty well, even though all M50 segments have no city/town name on them - but they're all within (at most) 200m of other segments that do have a city/town name - so yes, we'll play this one by ear. I'll try to reflect that in the wording I put in the wiki (which we can obviously tweak as much as we like once it's done).

bprob wrote:

davidg666 wrote: [...local road naming...]

Assume we're on the same page now (are we?) I'll be sure to make this point less ambiguous.

We are on same page!

Excellent!

++David \ davidg666

Alright: I've written a quick draft for the wiki page for naming and labelling roads. For the moment, it's here:

http://world.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Ho ... d%29_DRAFT

...after we've discussed it, revised it and agreed its approach, we can replace the existing page on naming and labelling roads with it.

All comments and discussion welcome!

++David \ davidg666