Hi,

David and I discussed this when I started working on N11/M11 and linked roads (and bits where I had been). L3 was considered adequate "for the time being" on such roads as Motorways and major roads and the rest as being L1.

The time for change, we thought, would be when 1) the map in Ireland was more mature and 2) there were more regular editors and users in Ireland.

Unless a junction or interchange has been known to generate UR's or issues then maybe, just maybe, it would be justified to lock to L4. But if no one is editing, who's to change it? There is, of course, nothing to stop some rampant inter-country editor letting loose..

I would tend to agree though that a policy, for future consideration and implementation should be formulated for once the conditions above are in place.

Des. . .

Hi,

You now need an influx of users in Ireland who also like to edit the map now and then to sort out issues and add missing roads..

Des. . .

Hi Pip,

seriousarsonist wrote:Is there a locking policy for Ireland? Having been doing some border areas I'm rather reluctant to add any locks to higher value roads once I've crossed the border. I'm only talking about national and primary routes and maybe the more complicated junctions.

There is no stated locking policy for Ireland, no. I went through and removed a lot of locks that seemed unnecessary from R- roads about a year ago. Some editors seem to have their own locking habits, for example:

• I've been applying L5 locks to very complicated junctions that I've taken a lot of time to get right and that now give the right TTS instructions - or that have been badly broken in the past after having been working before.
• CTCNetwork has been working on the M11/N11 in the south Wicklow area and has been applying L3 locks to the M11/N11 as he goes.
• stepbar has been locking junctions with turn restrictions as he goes - he says he's had to do this a lot in Belfast in the past. I'm in two minds about this one.
• I've noticed some other editors routinely locking their work at L3

In any case: although there is no policy, I'd be in favour of developing a gentle locking policy which would partly depend on how complete the maps were in each area. Something like this:

• lock motorways at L4 if (and only if) they are known to route well and where all interchanges/junctions are complete.
• lock major highways (N- dual carriageways) that are mapped as dual carriageways similarly to motorways.
• lock major highways (N- roads) that are mapped as single carriageways at L3 if (and only if) they are complete and only in places where they are known to route well and all attached roads are present.
• lock minor highways (R- roads) in well-mapped cities and towns at L3 on a case-by-case basis and only on complicated intersections that are known to route well. ("complicated" means a mixture of one-way segments, turn restrictions and anything else that could cause the junction to misbehave)
• in general, lock very complicated interchanges and junctions of any kind between L3 and L5, depending on the editor's discretion, past history, and the risk of bad misrouting by Waze if the junction is broken.
• any editor locking at level L4 or L5 must respond to unlock requests (or be confident that there's another editor who can respond to unlock requests) relatively quickly (within 24..48 hours).

At the moment, we have just 2..3 active L5 editors in Ireland and (I speculate) about 7..10 L3 editors. When I see the work of new editors appearing, I usually try to contact them and welcome them to map editing, and give them references to this forum, the Ireland wiki page(s) and other editing resources. I'm not sure how to go about it, but I'm hoping to continue to develop a community of map editors who are regular visitors to the forum and who will stay in touch with one another on any and all map editing issues. Any ideas or opinions on this are welcome!

++David \ davidg666

seriousarsonist wrote:So I'm guessing from that, that it is similar to the UK policy but with the NI caveat on maximum locks unless you know the road to be complete and routing properly? so it would be L3 for M-way and and major unless it is complicated, then a CM can check and uplock as appropriate. everything else just leave at L1...

sounds like a good way to do it to me.

Well, like I said, there is no policy at all right now - what I wrote above is just a suggestion. We've managed fairly well so far with almost no locks, and I'm in favour of no locks in areas where the map needs a lot of work, because it's very frustrating for an enthusiastic editor not to be able to connect new roads to existing roads. That said, I've seen new road segments created in quite a few places and not connected at all, possibly because the new editor didn't realise they actually have to form a junction with an existing road, not just overlap the new and old road segments.

seriousarsonist wrote:as for locking turn restricted junctions, I'm not so sure that is a good idea either. Apart from annoying local editors it can be a right pain if Waze throws up turning errors...

If leaving them unlocked does cause actual problems, perhaps they could be locked at L2 so that complete beginners can't modify them, but slightly experienced editors with 10000 edits (that's the limit for L2, isn't it?) who have also gone to the trouble of requesting the L2 upgrade (because it's not automatic) can still change them. In any case, we've managed fine so far with most junctions completely unlocked, and "turn not allowed" URs can be fixed fairly quickly, so long as it's clear which turn should be unallowed.

Any other editors reading this thread with an opinion on locking in Ireland?

++David \ davidg666

seriousarsonist wrote:I'd stick with locking things depending on the rank of the road, as per the outline provided above

So are you saying: if and when we adopt a locking policy, lock according to the road rank (approximately according to my suggested list)?

In the meantime, until we adopt such a policy we can L3-lock major roads (motorways and major highways) that are complete and working well, L3 lock complicated junctions on other roads as necessary, and L4- or L5-lock complicated junctions only where necessary AND where somebody is available to unlock them, AND where they have a history of being broken when not locked.

++David

seriousarsonist wrote:Yup that's what I'd go with!

Splendid. I'm in favour of leaving unlocked all roads (of any kind) that are incomplete (so that they can be completed and so that new road segments can be junctioned with them by any editor) and all roads of type minor highway or less except where there's a need to lock them.

++David

seriousarsonist wrote:

davidg666 wrote: Splendid. I'm in favour of leaving unlocked all roads (of any kind) that are incomplete (so that they can be completed and so that new road segments can be junctioned with them by any editor) and all roads of type minor highway or less except where there's a need to lock them.

And only lock Major Highway and above at L3 unless there's a need to lock above that due to completeness or other factor?

Yes, for sure. There are a few L5 locks floating around the place, left over from the days when the lock level was tied to the editing rank of the last editor to touch them, and a few L5 locks I've created on purpose (mostly because of very complicated junctions) but I generally try to avoid creating L5 locks without good reason.

++David

seriousarsonist wrote:In that case I shall soldier on, melting my head, trying to work out what to call all those rural roads! I really don't know how you do it!

If you mean back roads that are of a lesser rank than R- roads, I use Street View to look for signs at the ends of the roads that might identify then - some county councils are fairly good at putting up signs to identify the start of L- roads. Because the Street View images are mostly from 2009, I also take notes when I'm driving around country areas and see road number signs.

Aside from that, back roads are named after the townland they pass through, and I get the townland names from the OSI map. It's a bit of a guessing game working out which townland a road passes through, of course, since the OSI map just has townland names sprinkled around the place and no townland boundaries; I'm not sure if there even are formal boundaries between townlands!

++David

seriousarsonist wrote:Is 1 not enough?

... I have a mind to PM all the editors I know have been active on the Ireland map and ask them if they're still editing, and, if so, to show up in the forum. The scoreboard shows there are some people around, and I do keep seeing edits appearing, so there are certainly some editors knocking around.

I pay most attention to the Dublin region, so that's where I see most edits happening - although paradoxically that's where they're least needed. Certainly, Dublin needs ongoing maintenance and does have a *very* small number of missing bits and pieces, however regional towns, villages and cities (including some decent-sized cities - Galway, Limerick and Waterford, for example!) really need the most work.

At the moment I'm looking for breaks and bits missing in the network of R- roads; they're about 85+% complete, but there are some holes missing. Pip: I took your advice for the R578 in Kerry and created that missing section using nothing more than the integrated Street View; it worked better than I expected, but it did take a while.

++David \ davidg666