Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:17 pm

Shirli,

As usual, legal advice is available from a lawyer who has studied the national law of the respective countries.

However, if you have a look at the other manufacturers like TomTom, Garmin(Navigon), Alk et al, it is obvious that these companies have found legal advice that allows them to sell these services without violating he law.

The german law: Par. 23 Straßenverkehrsordnung:
(1b) Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, darf ein technisches Gerät nicht betreiben oder betriebsbereit mitführen, das dafür bestimmt ist, Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen anzuzeigen oder zu stören. Das gilt insbesondere für Geräte zur Störung oder Anzeige von Geschwindigkeitsmessungen (Radarwarn- oder Laserstörgeräte).

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__23.html

This is a server which hosts most german federal laws, paid by the government.

This is explicit in itself: Only a driver is not allowed to use devices which are dedicated to signal trafficsurveillance.

This is binding law for the driver of a car. Since this is not a crime but just a administrative offence, there is not even a punishment for cooperation, so Waze is not responsible for anything he driver does. According to german ADAC, the largest national motorist union, even a passenger would be allowed to use Waze in a car.

I can not comment on swiss or dansk law, but since other manufacturers have sold these services unharmed for years, the law must be similar.

Best regards,

Detlev



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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:30 pm

ccdmas wrote:
McFloyd wrote:
Art. 98a1 SVG

Warnungen vor Verkehrskontrollen

1 Mit Busse wird bestraft, wer:

a.
Geräte oder Vorrichtungen, die dazu bestimmt sind, die behördliche Kontrolle des Strassenverkehrs zu erschweren, zu stören oder unwirksam zu machen, einführt, anpreist, weitergibt, verkauft, sonst wie abgibt oder überlässt, in Fahrzeuge einbaut, darin mitführt, an ihnen befestigt oder in irgendeiner Form verwendet;


Waze hat leider keinen Spielraum... Vielleicht müssten wir halt eine Volsinitiative lancieren, die erlaubt, sich vor Radarfallen warnen zu lassen...


Yes, and there's the *big* difference compeared to germany. In switzerland, the device or application itself is illegal to start with, and it's forbidden by law to develop, sell, or make available such devices.

So I ask again: Waze, woukd you reconsider that decision for Germany *please*?

CU,
Massimo


Even in Switzerland, the law is not that unambiguous. We should restrict our counseling to our own law system. ;)
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:21 pm

pikifoo wrote:So why only Denmark, Germany and Switzerland? These three countries have a lower penetration rate in other countries, is that the reason? Delete the radar in a country such as France can make a great prejudice to the application.


As always, I can only interpret the German law - here, it's not forbidden to make and distribute such an application. We have them by the dozen, together with dedicated gps-appliances and radar-detectors. Building and selling them is as legal as it is to make and sell steak-knives. There is only law regarding the way you use them.

It is legal to use a steak-knive for eating steaks, and it is legal to use gps-based cam-detectors as a passenger or for off-board reference. However, nobody thinks about preemptively stopping the production of steak-knives, although there are illegal use-cases.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Re: AW: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:34 pm

davipt wrote:
wasserkatze11 wrote:As you can read here (in German) http://www.navi-magazin.de/grundlagen-w ... r-im-navi/
Gadgets who's only function it's to warn the user(s) are illegal. When the function is beside the functionality as a navigation-system (optional) then there was never an illegal action.


Thank you! I think this was the missing piece that made my German friends warn me to not even have Trapster installed in Germany, because Trapster is exclusively for radar detection.

On the other hand my rough German can't parse the whole text to reach a conclusion if a navigation software with a radar database is still legal or not. All I can read is that either the police ignores it (if you're stopped, I'm sure it's because you're at 200 at a 100 zone), or they will be nice and instead of destroying the iPhone, will just ask to remove the app.

So if the german layers can't give a concrete answer, how can Waze risk it?


Davipt, keep in mind that the law binds only the user of such a device, not the maker or software-producer, neither the distributor. It is perfectly legal to make and sell this kind of software, it is only illegal to use it as the driver of a vehicle. Since the usage is only an administrative offence, there is no law to punish a builder or vendor for conspiracy.

You as a driver must take care of your actions. Waze does not drive a car in Germany, so they do nothing illegal.

My favourite commercial gps application is Garmin Navigator, formerly from Navigon. They include their database even for free in the base application, and even enlighten the user by announcing "hazard areas" - although with exact locations and directions of radar equipment.

If Waze as the only navigation supplier refrain from making this service available to their users, they will deny their users a service which is quite relevant to lots of users. From my observations, waze will lose more users through this denial than they may ever hope to aquire through FB- or Google+-integration. I keep repeating my suggestion to Waze: You can really afford a good German lawyer to get qualified legal counsel on this matter.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:54 am

Shirli,

what is the planned way to discuss further proceedings - through the coordinators and champs of the respective countries, or via the forum?

Best regards,

Detlev
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Well, Waze should clarify two things:

1.) Whose legal issues are they after:
- Their own issues as a manufacturer
- The user's issues if being caught with an illegal device
- Being held liable by a customer who was caught with an illegal device

This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

2.) What is the further plan of action - will Waze discuss this with the community, with the champs and coordinators, or with a lawyer?

Best regards from a really pi..ed off local champ and coordinator who feels a little like firing up his Garmin Navigator - it's fully paid with map upgrades anyway, including stationary traffic cams.

Detlev
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:53 am

top_gun_de wrote:Well, Waze should clarify two things:

1.) Whose legal issues are they after:
- Their own issues as a manufacturer
- The user's issues if being caught with an illegal device
- Being held liable by a customer who was caught with an illegal device

This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

2.) What is the further plan of action - will Waze discuss this with the community, with the champs and coordinators, or with a lawyer?

Best regards from a really pi..ed off local champ and coordinator who feels a little like firing up his Garmin Navigator - it's fully paid with map upgrades anyway, including stationary traffic cams.

Detlev


Hi Shirli,

will there be an answer to these and the other questions in the thread? Your last posting is 4 days old.

We can discuss this in a smaller environment with the champs or coordinators of the affected countries, according to the organisational layout you posted in february. Just, don't keep the community out of the loop.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:20 am

McFloyd wrote:In der Schweiz muss waze also gar nichts mehr abklären. Klar finde ich es auch schade, dass die Radarfallen gelöscht werden. Ich werde künftig einfach vermehrt vor vereisten Strassen warnen - auch im Sommer... 8-)


Danke, Du darfst dich setzen.

Translation: Thanks, you may sit down now.
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:53 pm

I am sure that Argus addressed McFloyd ;-)
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:03 am

If you follow the thread, there is a lot of informaton on the local law - if Waze management had a lawyer for their initial action, they better find one with knowledge of the local law and law systems of the respective countries who can give them options.

This part has been discussed a lot - among the community.

Waze staff has obviously chosen not to answer the questions from the community, it has been five days since the last posting. Questions about the further plan of action (about proposals for further communication and about the reasoning behind the undefined "legal issues") have been unanswered.

Waze has defined a way of structured communication in february, but there is no communication along these channels.

Best regards,

Detlev


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