Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby Colonel667 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 am

Of course it's illegal here in Germany. Communes make deals with private companies to put up the static speed traps, and communes need the revenue they make from non-locals who get caught by those traps.

It's not political interest to warn people and make them slow down, it's political interest for communes to get some cash.
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:27 am

I've always been curious how could waze have kept the cameras in Germany when everybody there knows it's illegal to even have software to inform about cameras installed. I almost had my scary moment when I had trapster installed and the police was quite curious about my old nokia device on the dashboard, but was lucky they were just hunting people drunk from the bars and didn't bother me.

As far as I can remember, for completeness, radar detection hardware is strictly forbidden, and software that announces cameras, fixed or mobile, are also forbidden in some countries - germany being the case - and over there, according to my rough german law translation and the comments from my friends, even having the software installed but not being open could be used against us. I may be wrong on this, I've been back to Portugal for two years now.

I'm mentioning this because there may be the case that removing the cameras from the map is not enough. There may be a need to even remove the camera report and maybe even the police report from the client, but I'm sure some native German can explain this better...
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Re: AW: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:30 pm

wasserkatze11 wrote:As you can read here (in German) http://www.navi-magazin.de/grundlagen-w ... r-im-navi/
Gadgets who's only function it's to warn the user(s) are illegal. When the function is beside the functionality as a navigation-system (optional) then there was never an illegal action.


Thank you! I think this was the missing piece that made my German friends warn me to not even have Trapster installed in Germany, because Trapster is exclusively for radar detection.

On the other hand my rough German can't parse the whole text to reach a conclusion if a navigation software with a radar database is still legal or not. All I can read is that either the police ignores it (if you're stopped, I'm sure it's because you're at 200 at a 100 zone), or they will be nice and instead of destroying the iPhone, will just ask to remove the app.

So if the german layers can't give a concrete answer, how can Waze risk it?
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:44 pm

pikifoo wrote:I continue to find this damage off but I can understand the point of view of Waze to want to comply with the laws. Too bad, however, that all the countries where road safety camera warning is prohibited are not all in this off (I think of France, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia).

http://www.cecbelgique.be/20120702/aver ... s71831.pdf


This document can't be right for Portugal, but IANAL and I'll ask my friends for the legislation. In Portugal it's clearly illegal to have a radar wave detector of any kind - the hardware type - but the usage of software applications that loads databases of radars can't be illegal when the police itself publishes both the fixed radars (sponsors a 3rd party site) and publishes themselves even on facebook, well in advance, the exact spots where they'll perform mobile radar and stop operations.

There may still be some caveats like forbidden pure "radar dedicated" and allow "navigation system with radar detection".

On the other hand all 30 something radars we have in Portugal must, by law, have a clear sign stating there will be a radar in 'x' meters, so the radar detection is kind of worthless because the warning is right in front of you. Example: http://goo.gl/maps/RxWcd
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Re: AW: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:52 pm

top_gun_de wrote:Davipt, keep in mind that the law binds only the user of such a device, not the maker or software-producer, neither the distributor. It is perfectly legal to make and sell this kind of software, it is only illegal to use it as the driver of a vehicle. Since the usage is only an administrative offense, there is no law to punish a builder or vendor for conspiracy.


Fully understood, and makes sense with the jokes my friends were doing because this way German companies can still make money out of these apps, only the people driving in Germany can't use them.

I'm just picking this subject because I assume Waze must be feeling the same as I did when I was living there - laws are complicated, german language doubles it, and german law quadruples it. The last thing I wanted was to be stopped by a Deutsch Polizei even if I had everything perfectly legal (*), but the day the guy starting asking me about my Wayfinder navigation running on a Nokia Symbian I got scared enough to ask my friends (which are also not layers) and got recommended to not even have trapster installed.

(*) well, kind of, being stopped at 2am on a small village (Ratingen, Vodafone's Datacenter) with a recent broken head light, by a "hairless" 2meter plus german guy with a stick in his hand and a strong "keine English. Papier schnell" is not a nice moment. Not that I'm complaining because whenever I needed their help they were amazing and efficient. Can't say the same about Portugal.
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:31 am

Had a "IANAL" discussion on a Portuguese forum dedicated to radars and on the international sub-forum where a lot of truck drivers participate and the, again "IANAL" comment was that albeit it's clear that any kind of active or passive radar hardware is prone to screw them up anywhere in Europe, they usually don't use pure radar apps - they're all into navi hardware, not iPhones or androids, when using navigation devices with radar POI the common answer was:

- in Germany, there are *a lot* of control on the trucks, mainly weight and the "speed disc" (that thing that record when the truck is driving and how fast) , but they weren't bothered with the navigation system

- in Switzerland some police question about the navi and radars, but usually ignore it, unless there are other illegal stuff and then the police will hunt down everything they can

BUT

- in France they basically need to turn off and hide the navigation systems since the new law was enabled, because the police will be a pain in the ass and make too much questions, wasting too much time. Usually nothing happens because, as stated above, the police can't force the drive to show the device and prove that poi radars were being actively used, but they can and are picking up on drivers. Maybe it's just the truck drivers, maybe it's just the Portuguese truck drivers.

In conclusion, as was stated in the beginning, maybe France is the one that should had had the radars disabled, not Germany and the other two.

And definitively the OP should have started with a "we've temporarily disabled the cameras for legal investigation", not this scary "we've deleted them all" :|
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:09 am

Snake68 wrote:
Colonel667 wrote:Of course it's illegal here in Germany. ...


And again read the law:

Alone, the driver commits an offense if he uses such a tool WHILE he drives on public roads.

There is no law that prohibits the sale or distribution of such tools.

Greetings


I know from experience that in Deutshland there is the "verboten" and the "strengstens verboten" :P so this is not a case of reading the law in the strict sense but have some pragmatic common sense:

- if it's clear that it's illegal for the driver to use the feature of radar DB POI while driving on a public road in Germany then indeed the most ethical solution from Waze to Waze users is to not provide the radar feature while in Germany.

IANAL.
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:22 pm

top_gun_de wrote:Davipt,

You are not a lawyer, and know the german law and law system only from second source.

So, please, stop deciding what is in the best interest of the German community and the German drivers. Garmin and Tomtom as the market leaders keep selling their a.. off with navigation solutions which include "hazard areas" free or as a premium, with noone questioning their ethics.


I'm not against you, quite the opposite. I'm trying to put myself into their shoes and understand their panic mode. They've already stated there are backups and that they are investigating the subject. With layers involved (and google), then there will be even less communication than usually. I'm trying to compare this situation with the failure on the Facebook pages and hope that with time and letting the panic settle down they will come down to their senses and analyze the stuff with proper facts, legal advice, and the community requests. Waze still has a small company's mindset, where they can't afford to be liable if something wrong happens. Weren't you around or know the story about the panic when people used the google maps layer?

I don't know your background, but one thing is being a driver using waze, the other is owning or working for a company and knowing your responsibilities and legal liabilities.

Now back to the subject, the problem is not "me knowing the law from second source". It's even the professional layers themselves not understanding it. Or better, the law is quite clear - everything is forbidden, even if the device is not being used and turned off, € fine, points and device confiscated -, but then it's not applied at all in practice, which is a weird thing to happen on such a country like Germany with so many enforced rules.

So it's all a question of heresay - the law says no, the community says yes, the concurrent products says "maybe, why not". I'm sure it's now all up to the layers, not waze anymore.

I don't want Waze to remove the cameras. But I surely don't want to risk again driving in Germany and lose my device to the Polizei because I have Waze or some other radar app installed.

To show I'm with you, I've been asking over and over again for a client/backend enhancement to allow enabling and disabling certain alerts and reports, per country and user based. In my case I wanted to disable redlight camera reporting for Portugal because legally we won't have any ever. Once having this feature would solve this issue - the server could disable the cameras and police (alerts and reporting) when entering Germany, but then users could reenable the feature at their own responsibility. For switzerland the server could push the disable command with the flag "can't be user enabled".
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:08 pm

Camou893 wrote:
davipt wrote:- if it's clear that it's illegal for the driver to use the feature of radar DB POI while driving on a public road in Germany

It even isn't illegal for the driver. Because the law was never about Navigation software or Mobile phones. The law is about those old Devices, that could receive the laser-rays and warn when they "see" the laser.

No police-man would be allowed to examine your mobile-phone when he stops you.


True, but they can question and harass you. Been there suffered it specially when one in not German fluent.

Picking on that, the French radars are also not illegal because the police also can't check the device, but my fellow truck drivers have been suffering when crossing France.



Sent from my iTapatalk
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Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby DFFF00 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:33 pm

man, that's a shame !

i live in germany, and used blaupunkt and navigon navigation systems before.
then, i checked waze out, and i think i'm speaking for most of us when i say, that the best about waze is showing speedcams.
google navigation is showing traffic jams, too.

i'm sure, most waze users don't use that app because they can map chat or report stopped vehicles on the side of the road.

now, check this:
in germany, it's illegal to use phones while driving. now, while in motion and trying to enter a destination adress, waze asks if you're a passenger. so IF the driver still wants to write the adress, he clicks on "passenger" and can decide to do something illegal himself.
so, even IF speed cam reports would be illegal in germany, why turn them off completely ? why not let the user decide if he wants to be a "criminal" (haha) or not.

but let's talk about speed cam reports being illegal or not:
a few users already posted links about StVO, §23, 1b (they even wrote a translation). it clearly says:
it's illegal FOR THE DRIVER (!!!) to have a device that's made to show or disturb speed cams.
but a cell phone is NOT a device to show a speed cam. a phone first of all is a phone, and it's not a device made to show speed cams. get it ? huge difference !

it's a shame that all the work done by the community is being pissed on like that. without the community, google wouldn't have bought waze for such a huge amount of money, and as far as i'm concerned, the community doesn't get nothing of the money waze got from google. now, that's pretty unfair if you ask me, but ruining the work of so many users who worked on waze for free, is even worse !

so, maybe you forgot to study the law thoroughly, but then you could still ask yourself:
IF speed cam warnings are illegal in germany, how come it's not illegal for navigon, garmin, blaupunkt and all the others to have speed cam warnings ? (sure, they might inform you when turning that function on, that it's not legal for the driver, but it's on you to decide).
and how come it's not illegal but very common in germany to report speed cams to radio stations, who warn people in the radio news about it ?

long story short:
speed cam warnings being illegal in germany ? totally wrong !
disabling that function in waze without even asking the community or having a poll: totally wrong, too.
waze losing a lot of wazers and demotivate the community ? think for yourself !

why not spend a few hundred dollars of the billions google gave waze and just ask a lawyer IF it's illegal, and if it really is, ask him what the legal loopholes are.
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