Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Moderator: Unholy

Re: AW: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:34 pm

davipt wrote:
wasserkatze11 wrote:As you can read here (in German) http://www.navi-magazin.de/grundlagen-w ... r-im-navi/
Gadgets who's only function it's to warn the user(s) are illegal. When the function is beside the functionality as a navigation-system (optional) then there was never an illegal action.


Thank you! I think this was the missing piece that made my German friends warn me to not even have Trapster installed in Germany, because Trapster is exclusively for radar detection.

On the other hand my rough German can't parse the whole text to reach a conclusion if a navigation software with a radar database is still legal or not. All I can read is that either the police ignores it (if you're stopped, I'm sure it's because you're at 200 at a 100 zone), or they will be nice and instead of destroying the iPhone, will just ask to remove the app.

So if the german layers can't give a concrete answer, how can Waze risk it?


Davipt, keep in mind that the law binds only the user of such a device, not the maker or software-producer, neither the distributor. It is perfectly legal to make and sell this kind of software, it is only illegal to use it as the driver of a vehicle. Since the usage is only an administrative offence, there is no law to punish a builder or vendor for conspiracy.

You as a driver must take care of your actions. Waze does not drive a car in Germany, so they do nothing illegal.

My favourite commercial gps application is Garmin Navigator, formerly from Navigon. They include their database even for free in the base application, and even enlighten the user by announcing "hazard areas" - although with exact locations and directions of radar equipment.

If Waze as the only navigation supplier refrain from making this service available to their users, they will deny their users a service which is quite relevant to lots of users. From my observations, waze will lose more users through this denial than they may ever hope to aquire through FB- or Google+-integration. I keep repeating my suggestion to Waze: You can really afford a good German lawyer to get qualified legal counsel on this matter.

Best regards,

Detlev
Last edited by top_gun_de on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
AM Region Hannover, CM Deutschland (Germany), Coordinator Germany, Global Champ

Wiki Deutschland | Straßen und Orte benennen D | Karte bearbeiten | Editorbedienung
top_gun_de
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Hannover, Germany
Has thanked: 2502 times
Been thanked: 3756 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:44 pm

pikifoo wrote:I continue to find this damage off but I can understand the point of view of Waze to want to comply with the laws. Too bad, however, that all the countries where road safety camera warning is prohibited are not all in this off (I think of France, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania and Slovakia).

http://www.cecbelgique.be/20120702/aver ... s71831.pdf


This document can't be right for Portugal, but IANAL and I'll ask my friends for the legislation. In Portugal it's clearly illegal to have a radar wave detector of any kind - the hardware type - but the usage of software applications that loads databases of radars can't be illegal when the police itself publishes both the fixed radars (sponsors a 3rd party site) and publishes themselves even on facebook, well in advance, the exact spots where they'll perform mobile radar and stop operations.

There may still be some caveats like forbidden pure "radar dedicated" and allow "navigation system with radar detection".

On the other hand all 30 something radars we have in Portugal must, by law, have a clear sign stating there will be a radar in 'x' meters, so the radar detection is kind of worthless because the warning is right in front of you. Example: http://goo.gl/maps/RxWcd
ImageBruno D. Rodrigues | Global Champ
Coordinator for Portugal | Expert iPhone and others
Forum PT | Wiki PT | Facebook PT | Twitter PT
davipt
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 2720
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Oeiras, Portugal
Has thanked: 271 times
Been thanked: 547 times

Re: AW: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:52 pm

top_gun_de wrote:Davipt, keep in mind that the law binds only the user of such a device, not the maker or software-producer, neither the distributor. It is perfectly legal to make and sell this kind of software, it is only illegal to use it as the driver of a vehicle. Since the usage is only an administrative offense, there is no law to punish a builder or vendor for conspiracy.


Fully understood, and makes sense with the jokes my friends were doing because this way German companies can still make money out of these apps, only the people driving in Germany can't use them.

I'm just picking this subject because I assume Waze must be feeling the same as I did when I was living there - laws are complicated, german language doubles it, and german law quadruples it. The last thing I wanted was to be stopped by a Deutsch Polizei even if I had everything perfectly legal (*), but the day the guy starting asking me about my Wayfinder navigation running on a Nokia Symbian I got scared enough to ask my friends (which are also not layers) and got recommended to not even have trapster installed.

(*) well, kind of, being stopped at 2am on a small village (Ratingen, Vodafone's Datacenter) with a recent broken head light, by a "hairless" 2meter plus german guy with a stick in his hand and a strong "keine English. Papier schnell" is not a nice moment. Not that I'm complaining because whenever I needed their help they were amazing and efficient. Can't say the same about Portugal.
ImageBruno D. Rodrigues | Global Champ
Coordinator for Portugal | Expert iPhone and others
Forum PT | Wiki PT | Facebook PT | Twitter PT
davipt
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 2720
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Oeiras, Portugal
Has thanked: 271 times
Been thanked: 547 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:54 am

Shirli,

what is the planned way to discuss further proceedings - through the coordinators and champs of the respective countries, or via the forum?

Best regards,

Detlev
Image
AM Region Hannover, CM Deutschland (Germany), Coordinator Germany, Global Champ

Wiki Deutschland | Straßen und Orte benennen D | Karte bearbeiten | Editorbedienung
top_gun_de
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Hannover, Germany
Has thanked: 2502 times
Been thanked: 3756 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby argus-cronos » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:02 am

We will use other solutions in the future if the changes screwing us up, what else!
So use Trapster!
argus-cronos
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: Basel, Switzerland
Has thanked: 884 times
Been thanked: 1092 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby davipt » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:31 am

Had a "IANAL" discussion on a Portuguese forum dedicated to radars and on the international sub-forum where a lot of truck drivers participate and the, again "IANAL" comment was that albeit it's clear that any kind of active or passive radar hardware is prone to screw them up anywhere in Europe, they usually don't use pure radar apps - they're all into navi hardware, not iPhones or androids, when using navigation devices with radar POI the common answer was:

- in Germany, there are *a lot* of control on the trucks, mainly weight and the "speed disc" (that thing that record when the truck is driving and how fast) , but they weren't bothered with the navigation system

- in Switzerland some police question about the navi and radars, but usually ignore it, unless there are other illegal stuff and then the police will hunt down everything they can

BUT

- in France they basically need to turn off and hide the navigation systems since the new law was enabled, because the police will be a pain in the ass and make too much questions, wasting too much time. Usually nothing happens because, as stated above, the police can't force the drive to show the device and prove that poi radars were being actively used, but they can and are picking up on drivers. Maybe it's just the truck drivers, maybe it's just the Portuguese truck drivers.

In conclusion, as was stated in the beginning, maybe France is the one that should had had the radars disabled, not Germany and the other two.

And definitively the OP should have started with a "we've temporarily disabled the cameras for legal investigation", not this scary "we've deleted them all" :|
ImageBruno D. Rodrigues | Global Champ
Coordinator for Portugal | Expert iPhone and others
Forum PT | Wiki PT | Facebook PT | Twitter PT
davipt
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 2720
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Oeiras, Portugal
Has thanked: 271 times
Been thanked: 547 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby top_gun_de » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Well, Waze should clarify two things:

1.) Whose legal issues are they after:
- Their own issues as a manufacturer
- The user's issues if being caught with an illegal device
- Being held liable by a customer who was caught with an illegal device

This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

2.) What is the further plan of action - will Waze discuss this with the community, with the champs and coordinators, or with a lawyer?

Best regards from a really pi..ed off local champ and coordinator who feels a little like firing up his Garmin Navigator - it's fully paid with map upgrades anyway, including stationary traffic cams.

Detlev
Image
AM Region Hannover, CM Deutschland (Germany), Coordinator Germany, Global Champ

Wiki Deutschland | Straßen und Orte benennen D | Karte bearbeiten | Editorbedienung
top_gun_de
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Hannover, Germany
Has thanked: 2502 times
Been thanked: 3756 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby Mynios » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:41 pm

top_gun_de wrote:This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

Perhaps it's a silly question but did Waze already talked with local lawyers?


Irgendwas mit Tapatalk
Image
Mynios
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 4978
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:00 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Has thanked: 1239 times
Been thanked: 1588 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby popel22 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:53 pm

after closing googles offices in zurich last monday, swiss police is now chasing shirli in raanana.....
Attachments
busted.JPG
busted.JPG (142.93 KiB) Viewed 6443 times
popel22
Coordinators
Coordinators
 
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:00 pm
Location: DACH (Germany, Austria and Switzerland)
Has thanked: 1318 times
Been thanked: 910 times

Re: Removal of speed cameras following legal issues

Postby Camou893 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:29 pm

And still no answers from waze... To keep quiet won't solve the problems you have with your community. Don't you need your community?
Image
Kürzere TTS-Ansagen | Speed-Tracker | waze Aufkleber | AM-Liste | eigenes Farbschema
AM RW FDS Horb Hechingen Meßstetten TUT VS St.Georgen Schramberg
Camou893
Area Manager
Area Manager
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Germany Schwarzwald/Schwäb.Alb
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 101 times

PreviousNext

Return to Website, Community, General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users