Primary Streets (US)

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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:33 pm

bgodette wrote:So, time to open a new thread in that other forum with specific examples of works and fails for the same effective routes with the only different that PtP/Driven and ask for the ratio to be adjusted again.


All,

Did this ratio change ever get done? It would be really nice if it could be done in the next few weeks (more to the point, next few days so changes it makes can be understood) soon. I'm still seeing the same general limitaitons on routing, so I don't think any changes were made on this front?
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:20 am

So, time to open a new thread in that other forum with specific examples of works and fails for the same effective routes with the only different that PtP/Driven and ask for the ratio to be adjusted again.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:28 pm

CBenson wrote:Maybe because waze can't find the route? The permalink gets you to the correct location over the Chesapeake Bay does it not? Go ahead and try to route from the highway in Shady Side on the Western shore to the highway on Tilghman Island on the Eastern Shore. Or for that matter try routing from any highway near the shore on one side to a highway near the shore on the other side.


Okay, I see. I posted a similar one to that (in some other thread) a couple of weeks ago. Try Venice, LA to Grand Isle, LA. 20 miles as the crow flies but about 150 miles on the road, all Major, Minor and Freeway from start to finish.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby CBenson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:53 pm

jasonh300 wrote:
CBenson wrote:I don't think so. Waze can't find a route from the minor highway in Shady Side to the minor highway on Tilghman Island here.


Bad permalink.

Maybe because waze can't find the route? The permalink gets you to the correct location over the Chesapeake Bay does it not? Go ahead and try to route from the highway in Shady Side on the Western shore to the highway on Tilghman Island on the Eastern Shore. Or for that matter try routing from any highway near the shore on one side to a highway near the shore on the other side.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:28 pm

CBenson wrote:I don't think so. Waze can't find a route from the minor highway in Shady Side to the minor highway on Tilghman Island here.


Bad permalink.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby CBenson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:38 pm

skbun wrote:Yeah, I mean, I know by demonstration that if I typed all paved rural roads as minor highways, I'd avoid this problem completely

I don't think so. Waze can't find a route from the minor highway in Shady Side to the minor highway on Tilghman Island here.
skbun wrote:I think why I called this behavior 'bizarre' is not so much because it doesn't make logical sense. It's because intuitively, I as a user of the app would expect that Waze shouldn't lose the ability to route to a destination as I near it.
Yeah, when you put it like that I do see why you call it bizarre.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:45 pm

bgodette wrote:
CBenson wrote:Why is this bizarre? This is exactly what the PtP/driven ratio pruning does. If the route is too circuitous the driven distance is too high compared to the point to point distance and waze doesn't find the route.
Pretty much that. The ratio probably needs to be adjusted again by Waze.

It also demonstrates what I mentioned earlier that paved mountain roads that connect significant locations (eg towns) should be typed as Primary at a minimum.


Course, in this case, even 'primary' isn't enough for Corral Bottom and Underwood mountain, or for the end-around using highways. Yeah, I mean, I know by demonstration that if I typed all paved rural roads as minor highways, I'd avoid this problem completely, but I don't think that's really ideal and is probably torture on the routing engine; some roads are gravel, and some are practically highways; and sometimes the fastest way from point A to B is way around the bend at C.

I think why I called this behavior 'bizarre' is not so much because it doesn't make logical sense. It's because intuitively, I as a user of the app would expect that Waze shouldn't lose the ability to route to a destination as I near it. As it is, I could start in Crescent City, CA, stop for lunch in Big Bar, and suddenly, I'm stuck there because Waze won't find a route through to Hyampom. I also called it bizarre on the notion that returning 'some route', any route, circuitous or not, is better than Waze returning 'I can't find a route'' from a user standpoint.

I know as far as rural areas go, this is the part where we go back to discussion about Waze being a commute and not a nav app, but if given the choice between Waze being able to route point to point more than 1000 miles (few can drive further than that in a single day anyway) or high ratio/short distance routes working, I'd pick this one.

Probably the ratio being as low as it is now saves a ton of CPU cycles in urban areas, where there really are eight different ways to get from point A to B, so I'm not sure it needs to be increased across the board for all queries. What I'm thinking is adding a pretty simple if/then to the engine that goes like this:

IF (engine returns 'no route found at all')
THEN (increase/double/whatever the ratio and try again)
(and if that fails)
NOW return 'No route found' to the user.

If I try routing from Big Bar or Burnt Ranch to Hyampom, after a tiles refresh (so I know it's not cached yet), the answer 'No route found' comes back VERY quickly, so I suspect it just hits the wall of 'Sure, I see routes, but the ratio is too high. Nope.' The loop above I bet would nail this.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:49 pm

CBenson wrote:Why is this bizarre? This is exactly what the PtP/driven ratio pruning does. If the route is too circuitous the driven distance is too high compared to the point to point distance and waze doesn't find the route. If you increase the distance and that increase can be routed over straight roads, then the point to point distance becomes a higher fraction of the driven distance. If the fraction is high enough then waze finds the route.
Pretty much that. The ratio probably needs to be adjusted again by Waze.

It also demonstrates what I mentioned earlier that paved mountain roads that connect significant locations (eg towns) should be typed as Primary at a minimum.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby CBenson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:59 pm

Why is this bizarre? This is exactly what the PtP/driven ratio pruning does. If the route is too circuitous the driven distance is too high compared to the point to point distance and waze doesn't find the route. If you increase the distance and that increase can be routed over straight roads, then the point to point distance becomes a higher fraction of the driven distance. If the fraction is high enough then waze finds the route.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:27 am

bgodette wrote:
skbun wrote:Can you explain what PtP/driven ratio is?
Point-to-Point distance vs Driven distance. There's pruning based on that ratio (the ratios are unknown), and it appears to be different based on Type.


Okay, this is really bizarre. Routing through both these roads DOES work if you're a sufficient distance away. Have a look at http://www.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&lat ... &to_seg=-1

...but DOES fail from McKinleyville, CA to Hyampom.

I almost want to phrase this as 'At close distances, it's like the routing engine is giving up a little too easily'. It doesn't find a close primary street route, _or_ a distant highway one.
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