Primary Streets (US)

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Primary Streets (US)

Postby weeezer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:50 pm

Branching off the discussion on Primary Streets which started from the discussion on Service Roads.

Summary of thoughts so far:

mapcat wrote:
WeeeZer14 wrote:my "rule" that any ramp should terminate on at least a Primary Street as well. (Except for say rest areas or ramps to a private/secured campus.

Good rule. Ought to be the standard.


mapcat wrote:It definitely needs to have a higher rank than Street (otherwise, what's the point, other than to make them stand out in the client?). But besides that, my general feeling is that primary streets and a minor highways fulfill the same roles, only one has a highway number (US or state) and the other one doesn't (or it's a county highway). Rare exceptions apply, of course.


bgodette wrote:That's exactly how I look at it as well. There's lots of 2 to 3 lane and some 4 lane wide roads here that aren't numbered highways, and if they weren't urban no one would have qualms about saying they were highways. I've made them Primary as I come across them, but the only preference they seem to be getting is on account of their generally higher average speeds.


WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the point, well it may be that the original intent was display only. Just like my thought for Service Roads. Priority is part of what we are trying to hash out in the discussion of NJ road types. Right now I am thinking that primary street should be a tier below Minor Highway. It is something that is important/high volume, but calling it a highway would be very generous.

I guess this touches on some of the difference between a highway (a physical structure) and a route (a logical designation). Sometimes they play nice together, other times they bash heads.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:29 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the point, well it may be that the original intent was display only. Just like my thought for Service Roads. Priority is part of what we are trying to hash out in the discussion of NJ road types. Right now I am thinking that primary street should be a tier below Minor Highway. It is something that is important/high volume, but calling it a highway would be very generous.

Let's say you have two urban roads with similar volume, similar physical structure, similar number of curb cuts, etc. One has a state hwy number, one doesn't. Do you make the one without a number a minor highway, or do you make the one with a number a primary street?

Personally I'd make the one with a number a minor highway and the one without a primary street. I'm basing this on pure speculation that the routing server doesn't care anything about the road type in this case. Someday, I'd really like to have a long discussion about this with the routing server. Eventually I think it would come over to my side.

I guess this touches on some of the difference between a highway (a physical structure) and a route (a logical designation). Sometimes they play nice together, other times they bash heads.

Maybe that's the problem here. I don't associate "highway" with physical structure, at least not in the IF physical structure=highway THEN category=(major, minor) highway sense. For example, the road we're currently calling "US Hwy 23" is sometimes a freeway, sometimes a major highway, and sometimes a minor highway in Ohio. When it goes through some small towns as a 2-lane street, it's really no more or less important than the 2-lane streets it intersects at stoplights. But they're not marked with state highway signs, so they get to be primary streets on the map, and it passes through as a minor highway.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:49 pm

mapcat wrote:Let's say you have two urban roads with similar volume, similar physical structure, similar number of curb cuts, etc. One has a state hwy number, one doesn't. Do you make the one without a number a minor highway, or do you make the one with a number a primary street?

Personally I'd make the one with a number a minor highway and the one without a primary street. I'm basing this on pure speculation that the routing server doesn't care anything about the road type in this case. Someday, I'd really like to have a long discussion about this with the routing server. Eventually I think it would come over to my side.

Maybe that's the problem here. I don't associate "highway" with physical structure, at least not in the IF physical structure=highway THEN category=(major, minor) highway sense. For example, the road we're currently calling "US Hwy 23" is sometimes a freeway, sometimes a major highway, and sometimes a minor highway in Ohio. When it goes through some small towns as a 2-lane street, it's really no more or less important than the 2-lane streets it intersects at stoplights. But they're not marked with state highway signs, so they get to be primary streets on the map, and it passes through as a minor highway.

So you're of the opinion that:

Interstates are always Freeway.
US Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Major
State Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Minor
Other roads (unnumbered) are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Primary or below depending on functional considerations.

But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby weeezer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:03 pm

mapcat wrote:Let's say you have two urban roads with similar volume, similar physical structure, similar number of curb cuts, etc. One has a state hwy number, one doesn't. Do you make the one without a number a minor highway, or do you make the one with a number a primary street?

Personally I'd make the one with a number a minor highway and the one without a primary street. I'm basing this on pure speculation that the routing server doesn't care anything about the road type in this case. Someday, I'd really like to have a long discussion about this with the routing server. Eventually I think it would come over to my side.


I agree and would handle the roads the same way.

I don't associate "highway" with physical structure, at least not in the IF physical structure=highway THEN category=(major, minor) highway sense. For example, the road we're currently calling "US Hwy 23" is sometimes a freeway, sometimes a major highway, and sometimes a minor highway in Ohio. When it goes through some small towns as a 2-lane street, it's really no more or less important than the 2-lane streets it intersects at stoplights. But they're not marked with state highway signs, so they get to be primary streets on the map, and it passes through as a minor highway.


I guess I am just fighting the distinctions in my own head. I have no problem UP-grading a road based on physical structure. If there is a county route built to interstate quality, then sure, label it as freeway type.

But I fight with the idea of DOWN-grading a road. Like when US-23 goes through a downtown, it is still a US highway and is a "major" component of the transportation network, so I'd leave it as Major unless there was a "better" bypass which could be Major instead.

US-11W here in TN is almost interstate quality but has grade intersections in my county. Heading north it goes down to 1 lane in each direction for two counties, then meets US-25E which is again close to interstate quality. That lower quality section I still have marked as Major Hwy because it is still the same road and there are no other parallel routes in that general area.

If we go with a pure physical determination, then we'd have roads changing type every few miles. If we go pure route-type determination, then we don't address bypasses.

So I think we need a hybrid where we try to balance both. Such as only changing types at intersections with roads of the same of higher type. For example US-23 shouldn't change from Major to Minor at a regular street or even a primary street. But changing at another Major or a Freeway makes sense.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby weeezer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:08 pm

bgodette wrote:So you're of the opinion that:

Interstates are always Freeway.
US Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Major
State Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Minor
Other roads (unnumbered) are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Primary or below depending on functional considerations.

But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.


We will see what mapcat says, but I would agree with the addition that there are cases where I'd make a State Highway Major. Specifically the case where a road is near interstate quality but is not fully limited access. One example is SR-168 (aka Pellissippi Parkway) north of I-40 in TN. Below I-40 that road is I-140, but above there are a few side street connections to ruin the limited access.

And the NJ specific conversation that started this would make numbered county routes Primary unless they are of a certain class of routes which could be Minor Highways.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:22 pm

bgodette wrote:Interstates are always Freeway.
US Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Major
State Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Minor
Other roads (unnumbered) are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Primary or below depending on functional considerations.

But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.


I agree with all of that except the last sentence in that I feel that Minor Highway should be given a higher priority over a Primary Street.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby weeezer14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:23 pm

I created yet another topic to talk about the 3 highest road types (Freeway, Major Highway, and Minor Highway).
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:09 pm

jasonh300 wrote:
bgodette wrote:But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.


I agree with all of that except the last sentence in that I feel that Minor Highway should be given a higher priority over a Primary Street.

So as far as the "long-route" algorithm is concerned, Primary should be considered just like Freeway/Ramp/Major/Minor, but base cost should be slightly more than Minor but less than Street.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mwhead2 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:23 pm

WeeZer14 wrote:But I fight with the idea of DOWN-grading a road. Like when US-23 goes through a downtown, it is still a US highway and is a "major" component of the transportation network, so I'd leave it as Major unless there was a "better" bypass which could be Major instead.


Agreed. I've been setting US highways as major except when signed as business routes or otherwise, then minor highways (US-78 BUS through Athens, for example).

WeeeZer14 wrote:We will see what mapcat says, but I would agree with the addition that there are cases where I'd make a State Highway Major. Specifically the case where a road is near interstate quality but is not fully limited access. One example is SR-168 (aka Pellissippi Parkway) north of I-40 in TN. Below I-40 that road is I-140, but above there are a few side street connections to ruin the limited access.


https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=2&lat=33.9751&lon=-83.97143&layers=BFTFTTTFTTFTFFTFTTTTT

SR-316 from Athens to NE of Atlanta is concurrent with US-29 almost all the way, so I left the part between where US-29 leaves and before the freeway portion as Major Highway instead of switching to Minor (it's going to be upgraded to limited access sometime soon anyways).

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=0&lat=33.92919&lon=-83.45988&layers=BFTFTTTFTTFTFFTFTTTTT
The eastern end of SR-316 stops at the Athens bypass (SR-10 Loop) and continues as Epps Bridge Parkway, which isn't signed as a state route, but I've set it to Minor Highway instead of Primary since it does connect 316 to Atlanta Hwy (US-78 BUS)... and it looks better on the map than having that part disappear after zooming out ;)
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:59 pm

bgodette wrote:So you're of the opinion that:

Interstates are always Freeway.
US Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Major
State Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Minor
Other roads (unnumbered) are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Primary or below depending on functional considerations.

But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.

Sorry, was out in the snow watching my kid not sell many girl scout cookies.

That not quite what I had in mind. Based on Ohio, to start: not all US Highways should be major highways; where US-23 basically shadows I-75 it's not the main route through that area and should be downgraded. Other US highways have 2 lanes and no shoulders: definitely not major. The majority of state highways should probably be minor, with the exception of the main ones (long, typically 4-lane divided, wide shoulders).

But yes, I'd like it if primary street was reserved for non-freeway, non-badged roads of some significance, and that it matched minor highway in terms of transit cost and route pruning.
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