Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:59 pm

Oakland-SF Bay Bridge (I-80 W) (compete based on the below procedure)

Alan and I started a side conversation on the N. California bridges and we decided to bring it here.

I had been marking the bridges using the following procedure. Because you cannot get on the bridge without getting through that one toll gate, I assumed that meant we only need to mark the segment(s) that passed through the toll gate(s). Since technically the bridge should be one segment to the other side (one for each direction on some bridges) until the next junction (when the toll is no longer applicable anyway), there was no need to mark segments after the initial toll segment.

On the approach to the toll booth side again I am only marking the section that passed through the toll booth assuming it made no difference for the upcoming "Avoid Toll" option how many segments were marked before the actual booth for the feature to work.

My objective was to minimize the number of segments that required Toll management. This seemed to best meet the agreed toll road procedures I was reviewing in the related discussion threads, unless I missed some threads along the way. I am happy to support a different procedure accepted by the community if this causes problems I did not consider.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:24 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I have a very small dog in this fight. :)

Alan, I really am a conformist at heart. I hope that no one ever assumes that I am so passionate about a position or opinion that I would start a dog fight. Besides, I only have a little 5 pound Chiweenie. :oops:

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:My understanding from previous threads was to mark every segment which is explicitly a toll-based road. There are exceptions throughout the US where you can get on and off portions of a "toll road" without paying a toll and for these roads, we cannot mark all sections. For those I thought we were marking only the plaza locations, or ramps to the same.

I think we are essentially in agreement for the bridges. I saw the changes you made to the I-80 E Vallejo bridge and the only difference in what I had previously done for that bridge was you added the segments preceding the toll booth where there was no exit from that roadway besides straight to the toll booth.

If the "Avoid Toll Roads" feature looks at your map changes or my original map changes (only at the toll booth) the bridge is avoided. Since both methods also prevent you from using the segments before the toll booth (yours because it is marked toll and mine because there is no routing that will not bypass the toll booth), both methods will result in the same successful route avoiding the toll booth.

My technique prevents less experienced map editors from marking too many segments before the toll booth and accidentally making roads avoided that have valid exits from them before the toll booth. It also made any changes, modifications, etc. to the toll roads very simple in the future because the editor only has to find the toll booth on the map and make the change to the one segment passing through the booth.

In retrospect I should have spoken up in that thread with my proposal, but I was traveling with limited access (my wife was with me on vacation, so I had to sneak to the forums at night in the hotel room :) ) My intent was not to do my own thing in Northern California, but to achieve the same solution in less time, so get to make other edits.

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:This was, perhaps also, for the reason that if Waze decides to render a toll road graphically on the app, that we'd want there to be a visual representation of the toll road itself, not just the plaza, where that is feasible to do.

For visual representation they are going to have to have a road type for the color seperate from the actual toll flag so we can mark the sections that are from begining to end toll that may not have the ability to actually have the toll flag on it for routing purposes. It isn't going to be easy to see a 10m segment of toll road that is actually going through only the booth.

If we do get a different road type, then I think my proposal is easier to maintain going forward. However, if the community already agreed to mark all segments in front of the booth in anticipation of this feature or for some other reason I missed, then I stand corrected. I would then certainly go to all 7 bridges here and ensure we had 100% compliance with that decision.

Again I am convinced the current anticipated "Avoid Toll" feature will work fine with both techniques, and the SF Bay Area is now using one or the other technique so unless we want to map out the roads in anticipation of the possible display feature I propose both techniques work the same. I would prefer to work on other roads that are currently broken or not mapped properly though as I think many of us are finding after the drought hid so many beginner editor issues. :(
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:29 am

One thing I forgot to mention on the Oakland-SF Bay Bridge itself. Based on my cursory count of all the segments that can only lead to the toll plaza on the bridge, there are at least 17 different segments and I probably missed some. It is a complex interchange known as the MacArthur Maze.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=3&lon ... 6,57503809

My point earlier was if we needed to change some of the toll segments, we can simply select the three segments that pass through the toll plaza (which I have highlighted here). Otherwise you have to painstakingly search for all 17 (maybe more if I missed some) segments. Since the end result is exactly the same routing to avoid tolls, I propose that we don't label all the segments leading to the toll booth since Waze will automatically route properly with just three.

After all, the Wiki if full of messages that say to keep it simple, manageable, but operational. Don't over do things.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:10 pm

I was thinking through how the cost might be implemented. It seems like you can only have the segment at the point of the toll be the tracking point for cost. If true you only need to mark the segment through the toll booth.

In either case as I was looking how many segments are needed, most of possible Oakland-SF Bay Bridge pre-toll both segments are marked toll. Therefore I submit it will operate fine with just about any "Avoid Toll" solution the team creates so I will check it complete in the OP.

EDIT: Alan, can you check my change in the CA completed section. I may have messed up your intended layout, but there were a few bridges combined on one line, so I separated them.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:29 am

LittlestLou wrote:Update the following as completed for Texas:

Addison Airport (allaboutxy)
Mountain Creek Lake (allaboutxy)
Sam Houston Ship Channel (bz2012)
San Luis-Vacek Pass (littlestlou)
Lewisville Lake (danolinny / littlestlou)

Updated OP
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:59 pm

LittlestLou wrote:I know this is a noob question but how do I updated the OP? I did some work on a couple Texas/Mexico bridges yesterday (only the state-side though b/c I am not allowed to edit in Mexico).

Completed (Texas side only):

Convent Street Bridge/Gateway to the American Int'l Bridge
Juarez-Lincoln International Bridge

Alan,

Can a CM from North America edit from the Mexico side? Otherwise we need to get someone who has access from that side, no?

I have updated these bridges in the "To Do" side because they still need the Mexico side. Or do we consider them complete from a "US Bridge" perspective?

LittlestLou,

You have to be a moderator, so no worries. As you fix more bridges, just note it here and one of us will move/update it.

Check the OP in the To/Do side. Did I note the correct bridges? Your first bridge description did not match Alan's list exactly.
Juarez-Lincoln (LittlestLou completed US side already)
Laredo International Bridge (Convent St.) (LittlestLou completed US side already)


Thanks for your help.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:43 pm

LittlestLou wrote:PS: Is it better for me to keep updating this post or adding additional replies?

I believe it is better with separate posts because once it is read, we don't see it again on Forum apps like Tapatalk that follow unread posts (as far as I know).

{EDIT} What Alan said. :lol:
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:48 am

I found a few recent threads on marking Ferries as tolls noting there are still limitations, but I assume we are going to mark them as we go along and not have it restrict our turning on toll roads?

http://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=23448
http://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=23596

A few days ago I found a part of SR-84 in California that I never new existed. It crosses a small river by a free ferry. I will have to drive up there to see it. It was not even mapped in Waze, so I added it.

I know we have a number of other ferries that I will look up to see if they charge or are free, either way making sure the path is indicated. The question is if we want to leave off ferries that are down part of the year, or map them anyway. Seems like the same issue as turn restrictions, but technically we can just disconnect the road in the off season after we get a UR saying the Ferry is closed.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby LittleCena » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:16 pm

Please add to your list:
Maryland:
SR-200, the Inter-County Connector (ICC)

Virginia:
SR-267, the Dulles Toll Road
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby littlestlou » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:39 am

Update the following as completed for Texas:

Addison Airport (allaboutxy)
Mountain Creek Lake (allaboutxy)
Sam Houston Ship Channel (bz2012)
San Luis-Vacek Pass (littlestlou)
Lewisville Lake (danolinny / littlestlou)
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