Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby littlestlou » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:39 am

Update the following as completed for Texas:

Addison Airport (allaboutxy)
Mountain Creek Lake (allaboutxy)
Sam Houston Ship Channel (bz2012)
San Luis-Vacek Pass (littlestlou)
Lewisville Lake (danolinny / littlestlou)
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:10 pm

I was thinking through how the cost might be implemented. It seems like you can only have the segment at the point of the toll be the tracking point for cost. If true you only need to mark the segment through the toll booth.

In either case as I was looking how many segments are needed, most of possible Oakland-SF Bay Bridge pre-toll both segments are marked toll. Therefore I submit it will operate fine with just about any "Avoid Toll" solution the team creates so I will check it complete in the OP.

EDIT: Alan, can you check my change in the CA completed section. I may have messed up your intended layout, but there were a few bridges combined on one line, so I separated them.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby HavanaDay » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:04 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:If the "Avoid Toll Roads" feature looks at your map changes or my original map changes (only at the toll booth) the bridge is avoided. Since both methods also prevent you from using the segments before the toll booth (yours because it is marked toll and mine because there is no routing that will not bypass the toll booth), both methods will result in the same successful route avoiding the toll booth.


I don't think your thinking is flawed but we are unaware of exactly how the toll road option is going to be implemented. So if it is a penalty then the more legitimate segments marked as toll roads the better. If it is avoid at all costs except when it is the only way then your way is fine and maybe even preferred.

I have been using the scenario that it will only be a penalty for each segment driven. If it turns out the other way then there will not be any harm as it will already try to avoid the segments marked anyways.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:29 am

One thing I forgot to mention on the Oakland-SF Bay Bridge itself. Based on my cursory count of all the segments that can only lead to the toll plaza on the bridge, there are at least 17 different segments and I probably missed some. It is a complex interchange known as the MacArthur Maze.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=3&lon ... 6,57503809

My point earlier was if we needed to change some of the toll segments, we can simply select the three segments that pass through the toll plaza (which I have highlighted here). Otherwise you have to painstakingly search for all 17 (maybe more if I missed some) segments. Since the end result is exactly the same routing to avoid tolls, I propose that we don't label all the segments leading to the toll booth since Waze will automatically route properly with just three.

After all, the Wiki if full of messages that say to keep it simple, manageable, but operational. Don't over do things.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby Spil » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:21 am

I-190 on Grand Island, NY has been updated to toll as indicated ... I've updated the first post to show this. I'm leaving the NYC bridges/tunnels for someone more familiar with that area, but I'll try to get to the NY/ON border crossings if no one beats me to them. :)
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:24 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I have a very small dog in this fight. :)

Alan, I really am a conformist at heart. I hope that no one ever assumes that I am so passionate about a position or opinion that I would start a dog fight. Besides, I only have a little 5 pound Chiweenie. :oops:

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:My understanding from previous threads was to mark every segment which is explicitly a toll-based road. There are exceptions throughout the US where you can get on and off portions of a "toll road" without paying a toll and for these roads, we cannot mark all sections. For those I thought we were marking only the plaza locations, or ramps to the same.

I think we are essentially in agreement for the bridges. I saw the changes you made to the I-80 E Vallejo bridge and the only difference in what I had previously done for that bridge was you added the segments preceding the toll booth where there was no exit from that roadway besides straight to the toll booth.

If the "Avoid Toll Roads" feature looks at your map changes or my original map changes (only at the toll booth) the bridge is avoided. Since both methods also prevent you from using the segments before the toll booth (yours because it is marked toll and mine because there is no routing that will not bypass the toll booth), both methods will result in the same successful route avoiding the toll booth.

My technique prevents less experienced map editors from marking too many segments before the toll booth and accidentally making roads avoided that have valid exits from them before the toll booth. It also made any changes, modifications, etc. to the toll roads very simple in the future because the editor only has to find the toll booth on the map and make the change to the one segment passing through the booth.

In retrospect I should have spoken up in that thread with my proposal, but I was traveling with limited access (my wife was with me on vacation, so I had to sneak to the forums at night in the hotel room :) ) My intent was not to do my own thing in Northern California, but to achieve the same solution in less time, so get to make other edits.

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:This was, perhaps also, for the reason that if Waze decides to render a toll road graphically on the app, that we'd want there to be a visual representation of the toll road itself, not just the plaza, where that is feasible to do.

For visual representation they are going to have to have a road type for the color seperate from the actual toll flag so we can mark the sections that are from begining to end toll that may not have the ability to actually have the toll flag on it for routing purposes. It isn't going to be easy to see a 10m segment of toll road that is actually going through only the booth.

If we do get a different road type, then I think my proposal is easier to maintain going forward. However, if the community already agreed to mark all segments in front of the booth in anticipation of this feature or for some other reason I missed, then I stand corrected. I would then certainly go to all 7 bridges here and ensure we had 100% compliance with that decision.

Again I am convinced the current anticipated "Avoid Toll" feature will work fine with both techniques, and the SF Bay Area is now using one or the other technique so unless we want to map out the roads in anticipation of the possible display feature I propose both techniques work the same. I would prefer to work on other roads that are currently broken or not mapped properly though as I think many of us are finding after the drought hid so many beginner editor issues. :(
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby thefatveganchef » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:55 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:This was, perhaps also, for the reason that if Waze decides to render a toll road graphically on the app, that we'd want there to be a visual representation of the toll road itself, not just the plaza, where that is feasible to do.

For visual representation they are going to have to have a road type for the color seperate from the actual toll flag so we can mark the sections that are from begining to end toll that may not have the ability to actually have the toll flag on it for routing purposes. It isn't going to be easy to see a 10m segment of toll road that is actually going through only the booth.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby bgodette » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:38 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I had been marking the bridges using the following procedure. Because you cannot get on the bridge without getting through that one toll gate, I assumed that meant we only need to mark the segment(s) that passed through the toll gate(s). Since technically the bridge should be one segment to the other side (one for each direction on some bridges) until the next junction (when the toll is no longer applicable anyway), there was no need to mark segments after the initial toll segment.

On the approach to the toll booth side again I am only marking the section that passed through the toll booth assuming it made no difference for the upcoming "Avoid Toll" option how many segments were marked before the actual booth for the feature to work.

My objective was to minimize the number of segments that required Toll management. This seemed to best meet the agreed toll road procedures I was reviewing in the related discussion threads, unless I missed some threads along the way. I am happy to support a different procedure accepted by the community if this causes problems I did not consider.
Pretty much. For one-way tolls there's no way around having to have a split section, fortunately road geometry at major one-way tolls already means its split. For closed toll systems (no way on/off without paying) all segments can be marked. For open toll, eg Garden State Parkway, only the segments going through a toll-plaza/transponder reader should be marked.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby CBenson » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:10 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
tibble wrote:If the us-13 bay bridge mean the bay bridge tunnel, I did that the first day I could :)

I do believe it's done, but also was PMing with kentsmith9 about it in terms of which segments were marked as toll, etc. If it is complete, please move it to the completed section. I'm not planning on checking on all of these myself! :shock:

We're talking Virginia here. I also believe that were talking about those without moderator privileges.
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Re: Toll tunnel/bridge checklist - US

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:26 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:On the approach to the toll booth side again I am only marking the section that passed through the toll booth assuming it made no difference for the upcoming "Avoid Toll" option how many segments were marked before the actual booth for the feature to work.

I have only two toll bridges in Oregon, so I have a very small dog in this fight. :) My understanding from previous threads was to mark every segment which is explicitly a toll-based road. There are exceptions throughout the US where you can get on and off portions of a "toll road" without paying a toll and for these roads, we cannot mark all sections. For those I thought we were marking only the plaza locations, or ramps to the same.

This was, perhaps also, for the reason that if Waze decides to render a toll road graphically on the app, that we'd want there to be a visual representation of the toll road itself, not just the plaza, where that is feasible to do.
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