Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

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Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:31 pm

Take a read here: viewtopic.php?p=385433#p385433

What is brought up is a good point and one I think we should carefully consider.

There can be all sorts of "unpaved" roadways from city streets, primary streets and highways. "Unpaved" is more of a surface treatment. Whereas "4x4/Offroad" is more of a type of roadway. I think the suggestion has a lot of merit. The problem is, is that it will likely take Waze more time to implement a new checkbox and possibly add app/routing features to allow us to route around such areas.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby brucebergman » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:13 pm

Well, yeah - a "Texas Crossing" swale across the small river with 1 or 3 large buried culverts to handle the wintertime flow (and a layer of concrete over the whole thing to prevent scour) is a whole lot cheaper to build and maintain than a full bridge.

Of course, when it's been raining recently and there's a foot or more of fast flowing water above the vehicle pavement (IE you can't even see the water height telltale sign...) you'll have to go another way. If there *is* another way.
jwriddle wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
dan_in_TX wrote:Just to keep the discussion alive, TXDOT announced that they're going to un-pave some roads in South Texas.

I feel like they could save some money and let usage, lack of maintenance and mother nature do the "changing to gravel" part ... :)


In other news -- bridges are to be torn down in place of more water...
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby AndyPoms » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:14 am

daknife wrote:
PhantomSoul wrote:IMHO, a road being unpaved, no matter what its pack quality, automatically disqualifies it from being any kind of highway, as well as a primary street, regardless of what kind of marker it may have, or whether there are any other roads in the area. Main roads are paved, regardless of who maintains them. Period.


Speaketh the editor from New Jersey. No disrespect, and your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but it's funny how those from areas with far less "real" rough terrain are usually those making such statements. There are dirt/gravel roads in the midwest and west that are official US Hwy's and/or State Hwy's. They are usually quite well maintained but with low traffic flow and you can do 50-60 on them with no problem at all, you just don't follow bumper to bumper at full speed like so many do on an interstate at rush hour, you give the guy in front of you space for the gravel (and the dust) to settle down so it doesn't take out your windows or headlights. An unpaved road can most certainly be called a Hwy and there are many that are officially highways, do we go counter what the official designations are?

And as others have noted, this is not a purely US discussion as the editor options are the same worldwide.

Here in the North East PhantomSoul is certain correct - anything unpaved has almost no chance of being anything higher than a street, but in other parts of the country, daknife is correct - dirt/gravel roads can be much more common and have much higher speed limits/capacity.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby Daknife » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:38 am

dan_in_TX wrote:Just to keep the discussion alive, TXDOT announced that they're going to un-pave some roads in South Texas.

Yea, gotta county here in Utah doing the same thing, chopping it to gravel is like a fraction of the cost of repaving and then all they need to do to maintain it is run a grader down it every now and then and maybe the occasional shovel full of new gravel. Those who live or have business on the routes are not happy.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby jwriddle » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:57 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
dan_in_TX wrote:Just to keep the discussion alive, TXDOT announced that they're going to un-pave some roads in South Texas.

I feel like they could save some money and let usage, lack of maintenance and mother nature do the "changing to gravel" part ... :)


In other news -- bridges are to be torn down in place of more water...


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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:17 pm

dan_in_TX wrote:Just to keep the discussion alive, TXDOT announced that they're going to un-pave some roads in South Texas.

I feel like they could save some money and let usage, lack of maintenance and mother nature do the "changing to gravel" part ... :)
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby danofsatx » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:20 pm

Just to keep the discussion alive, TXDOT announced that they're going to un-pave some roads in South Texas.

SAN ANTONIO - Texas Department of Transportation officials have announced plans to move forward with converting some roads in West and South Texas oil and gas fields to gravel.

Some South Texas counties affected by the change would include Live Oak, Dimmit, La Salle and Zavala.

TxDOT also announced the speed limits on those roads would be reduced to 30 miles per hour.

TxDOT officials say the switch is necessary because of the heavy trucks traveling the lightly built roads, taking equipment to rural oil and gas drilling sites.

TxDOT needs to get permission from county commissioners to convert the roads to gravel.

A total of 83 miles of roads would be converted from paved to gravel, officials said.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby ncc1701v » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:53 pm

troyv wrote:So my original thinking was that if we were to use a network topology as an analogy, the router (Waze) would just send packets (users) down a certain segment (road) and see what the results were. If the packets (users) made it down a certain segment (road) OK, then the router would send more. That's great in the network world, but if Waze were to guide a user on to a rocky hiking trail in the forest using their Ford Taurus, that would be a bad thing. Basically, we shouldn't treat users as packets in a network.


You're reminding me of Paul Baran's hot-potato routing http://www.rand.org/about/history/baran.html :-).

troyv wrote:What if we took advantage of users and had a "get me out of here" button on the client. If that button is hit, Waze would attempt to guide the user to the closest well driven road as quickly as possible. Not only would it do that but it would take a note as to what road the user was on. When Waze was tempted to route another user that same way, it would see that a previous user wanted off of that road. Waze then would have learned a little bit to avoid that road segment when routing for future users.

If Waze uses any other than the route the user took in, it will probably be worse than the one they are on at the moment. The user knows how to get out of there: reverse direction ... then wait for Waze to start suggesting a reasonable alternative.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby ncc1701v » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:46 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:
ncc1701v wrote:4x4 i.e. "not suitable for ordinary cars" and pavement type are orthogonal attributes -- they do not depend on each other. I've been on roads in Brooklyn that I would consider not suitable for ordinary cars because of potholes, bumps, and miscellaneous car parts on them. We certainly want the first (4x4) to be independent, and probably a category along with "minor highway". Whether we want the second (pavement type) is not clear because the issues are not clear. The main justification seems to be that those roads are not well-used, so Waze's knowledge of them is questionable -- the pavement might be crap, they might be overgrown, etc. OK then, instead of "pavement type", how about a checkbox for "uncertain pavement quality"?


I'm not sure how much value an editor-declared attribute here would add vs just the measured speeds of traffic along a given segment, vs the opportunities for vandalism or other misuse it would open up.

If a road is really beat up, wouldn't it stand to reason it's speed metrics would reflect that and the routing engine would probably avoid it anyway?

The problem is areas where wazers are rare - including parts of Brooklyn.
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Re: Unpaved as a checkbox instead of road type?

Postby Daknife » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:21 am

PhantomSoul wrote:IMHO, a road being unpaved, no matter what its pack quality, automatically disqualifies it from being any kind of highway, as well as a primary street, regardless of what kind of marker it may have, or whether there are any other roads in the area. Main roads are paved, regardless of who maintains them. Period.


Speaketh the editor from New Jersey. No disrespect, and your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but it's funny how those from areas with far less "real" rough terrain are usually those making such statements. There are dirt/gravel roads in the midwest and west that are official US Hwy's and/or State Hwy's. They are usually quite well maintained but with low traffic flow and you can do 50-60 on them with no problem at all, you just don't follow bumper to bumper at full speed like so many do on an interstate at rush hour, you give the guy in front of you space for the gravel (and the dust) to settle down so it doesn't take out your windows or headlights. An unpaved road can most certainly be called a Hwy and there are many that are officially highways, do we go counter what the official designations are?

And as others have noted, this is not a purely US discussion as the editor options are the same worldwide.
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