US Forest Service Roads

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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Thu May 02, 2013 9:45 pm

daknife wrote:So to say it is officially decided seems a bit excessive as what was previously reported was that the road type would be renamed and then designated for such use. But until it is renamed, saying it's the rule seems to be jumping the gun. But then you were there, I couldn't make it on the weekend they chose for the meet-up so I'm only going second hand based on what was previously stated.

We don't know how Waze will implement this. There's also the problem that we just can't mass-covert segments because some are really offroad trails, and some are simply unpaved.

The suggestion we gave to Waze was to create an "Unpaved" checkbox and we can convert the gravel roads, and other non-offroad segments over. They would also just simply rename the "Dirt/4x4" to be "4x4/Offroad" and we'd move on with life. Therefore, if it is a 4x4 or other off-road trail that a normal car would not drive, then set it as Dirt/4x4 and it will just get the new name later. If it is a gravel or other street drivable by a normal car (though many of us avoid them), then do not set it to "Dirt/4x4" but just leave it as street or highway or whatever the road type may be.

Does that clarify things or make it worse? I admit I didn't read a whole lot of the more recent posts, so if I've totally gone off the road, I can just delete my post.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri May 03, 2013 7:42 pm

CBenson wrote:We've had South African posters point out that that they have highways (roads that need to be designated as highway for waze to route between towns) that are dirt roads...

Oregon has at least one, that I am aware of, gravel/unimproved state route/highway.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby AndyPoms » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:14 pm

As a result of the US Meetup, the "Dirt Road/4x4 Trail" is officially only for roads that a normal car (i.e. the family sedan) can drive on. The type will be renamed "Unpaved Road" in the near future. There was also talk of adding a "4x4" or "Off-Road" type.

Of course, there was a later discussing in the forums to make "Unpaved" a checkbox instead (and using the other road types) and renaming the exisintg type to be simply "4x4/Offroad".

HOWEVER, both plans consisted of taking the existing "Dirt Road/4x4 Trail" and making them the type that a sedan could drive on and ADDING support for things like a "modified Jeep".

This reminds me, there are bunch of things that weren't followed up on from the meetup... Off to make another post...
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby CBenson » Fri May 03, 2013 2:29 pm

I agree that there are distinct regional differences that make it difficult for waze to implement universal standards. We've had South African posters point out that that they have highways (roads that need to be designated as highway for waze to route between towns) that are dirt roads. On the other hand in urban/suburban US areas there is not really any reason to have roads that are unpassable for a standard passenger car on the map, thus dirt works well for any unpaved road (this allows the suburban driver to avoid gravel roads so they won't diminish their social status by dinging the paint on their Range Rover).

It certainly makes sense to me for waze to add an unpaved check box along with the client option to avoid unpaved roads. Then have a 4x4 road type, that could also be separately avoided in routing.

Whatever is done, there is no way we are going to get all editors to mark dirt roads that are driveable by a normal car as streets as long as there is a road type option that is labeled "Dirt road / 4x4 Trail" under the category "Other - driveable." No amount of explanation in the wiki is going to over come the label "dirt road" for many editors. If this road type is only for 4x4 use then the label needs to be changed and the client option should also be changed to avoid 4x4 roads or the like.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby CBenson » Fri May 03, 2013 7:03 pm

I'm hoping that time based restriction control will enable us to handle seasonal closures.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby CBenson » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:19 pm

I have not been keep up with this thread as I don't think I've ever come across a FSR. I've read the current page and it looks great to me. There is one factor that you might want to consider. I usually do look to the GPS layer when determining whether mountain roads/trails should be mapped. I'm much more likely to keep them on the map if wazers have actually used them. Of course I'm not looking at roads that have nice federal classifications like the FSRs.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby CBenson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:59 pm

Exactly, I'm only suggesting that the GPS is one factor in mapping and typing the roads. The GPS layer is certainly not reliable as the sole source for validating roads.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby Daknife » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:03 am

I'm with Phantomsoul on this. Ehud isn't native to the US, I don't think he realizes how widely the quality of these often so called roads varies. Some are highly maintained during the warm months, and some even get maintained as snowmobile trails during the winter. Some might get a pass over with a grader every couple years and some are barely even mtn goat trails.

Further, out here in the West/Southwest/Mountainwest there is a long history of people getting into trouble because they followed a route their GPS gave them. (Once or twice a year) These events have resulted in deaths. As such I strongly disagree with mapping these roads. Additionally in many areas where we find these roads there is NO cell signal (let alone data) for MILES and thus the usability of Waze greatly diminishes. Let's stick to getting the actual road system mapped and working correctly, and get a working unimproved road option built into the mapping system before we even begin thinking about mapping these roads.

"4X4/Dirt" covers too wide a range of roads, trails, deer trails and hints of paths, to be trying to map these roads.

I don't delete such roads that actually have official FS names from the basemap, but quite often I delete unnamed roads going through the wilderness.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby Daknife » Thu May 02, 2013 7:43 am

AndyPoms wrote:As a result of the US Meetup, the "Dirt Road/4x4 Trail" is officially only for roads that a normal car (i.e. the family sedan) can drive on. The type will be renamed "Unpaved Road" in the near future. There was also talk of adding a "4x4" or "Off-Road" type.
Don't we all just love these "Official Meet-up" decisions that are announced one way and then different attendees report differently. As per the recap thread Alan said that it was only lightly touched on and he reported that the idea was to rename the 4x4 road type to just dirt or unpaved and thus use it for commuter car quality roads. From the recap thread:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:That's a good question, and one which I think was touched on, but not discussed widely. I think this has a lot to do with how the current 4x4/dirt road is used right now, which is more often than not, for a gravel or dirt surface which is easily driveable by your standard consumer vehicles. Therefore, to make the easiest transition to something which is more in line with how the Waze map is defined in the US/Canada, it made more sense to rename the current.

Now, for the "4x4/Offroad": does it make more sense to have a new type or have this as a checkbox like Toll?

I can understand how perhaps "Unpaved" should be a checkbox and "4x4/Offroad" is more of a road type. It would be more work to update our roadways, but that may just make more sense in the long run. I have an unpaved minor (state) highway in my state of Oregon. I could then leave it as Minor Highway and mark it unpaved.

I think perhaps we need to discuss this more. Thanks for the ideas!


Also from the recap thread:
Decisions Made:
Remove US Service Road type: routes the same as street and its use is confusing and redundant. Plan is for Waze to identify these segments, prepare the code to do the mass change and get approval from Champs to proceed. To be removed from WME at the same time.
Rename US "Dirt/4x4" road type to "Unpaved" for clarity.
Create new US "4x4/Offroad" road type as Waze wants all paths of vehicle traffic, no matter how remote or how its used, to be mapped.


Then later (mostly in regards to landmarks) It was advised that until any decided/recommended changes are made the status quo is the rule. Thus to say the official decision seems exaggeration and counter the the decisions made regarding other issues. i.e. status quo until the editor/client changes are made.

So to say it is officially decided seems a bit excessive as what was previously reported was that the road type would be renamed and then designated for such use. But until it is renamed, saying it's the rule seems to be jumping the gun. But then you were there, I couldn't make it on the weekend they chose for the meet-up so I'm only going second hand based on what was previously stated.
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Re: US Forest Service Roads

Postby Daknife » Fri May 03, 2013 4:19 am

Thanks Alan I find your suggestion the most reasonable and viable simply due to the mass quantity of truly 4X4 only roads that are out there already designated as such. And to simply declare that label to mean a viable unimproved surface street can lead to getting people in serious and possibly life threatening trouble, and that is the last thing Waze wants to do.
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