Wow... summer has really taken a bite out of my Waze time!

Now that it has rained a bit and there is less smoke in the air, I was invited over to the US Forest Service (USFS) to talk with a couple of GIS staff. We had a great discussion about potential ways to improve consistency on Waze for USFS roads that matches the functional classification and intended road management practices of USFS.

There are a couple outcomes from this that I wanted to share here in case there are any comments or ideas...

(1) I am going to work with the USFS staff to create a Wiki on USFS roads. This will be draft and not connected anywhere. It will show locations of data on the Internet and provide some guidance on how to mark roads. There is a functional classification on these recreational road maps that seems pretty easy to map into Waze road types.

(2) I have the offer to provide the source GIS files from USFS for the whole US to Waze developers so they can see if they would be any value for importing. Who knows if this will work or not. I will check to see if Waze developers are interested.

This morning I went to the USFS’s ABQ Air Tanker Base. I got to watch some tankers on the runway being prepared to load up with retardant as there are some small local fires they are keeping an eye on. I talked with a USFS GIS staff member. He offered to have me also talk to USFS road engineers as needed. We discussed a number of things including me cluing him into what Waze was about and how it could benefit USFS if data were more accurate.

This is a quick overview of items just to document them. I’ll have more interactions in a while once there is (hopefully) a break in fire activity.

Naming Convention

He suggested using the standard “FSR-x” for Forest Service Route, which would have to be added to the Text-to-Speech engine. He said that convention for road naming in the FS is not absolute across forests and over time. We will need to refer to databases he can provide. The value for “x” may just be a number; however, it can be recursive on road stubs, such as 23 for the main road then stubs, 23A, 23A1, 23A2, 23B, 23C, using alternating designators. The third level of “23A1” is road 23, stub A, secondary stub 1. The exact choice is of this format is picked by different road engineers, so we cannot accurately predict something standard.

To be clear, the process would be that the Waze community would come up with a standard like “FSR-x” and then translate all the numeric from the different forest databases into the “x” part.

Maintenance (functional classification)

They use a five numbered designation. It is not clear how to get this data, but that is a next step I am working on.

1 = closed
2 = unpaved (the broadest category that starts with a trail vehicles made to something more substantial)
3 = passenger vehicle (something a regular non-4x4 could travel, paved or unpaved)
4 = paved (I don’t yet understand the overlap of this with level 3)
5 = highway (none or few of these exist in their inventory)

Potential Focus of Effort

He suggested starting with the Motor Vehicle Use Maps (MVUM) which shows roads that are encouraged for public use. Other roads are by default under Travel Management Restrictions, which means they are not intended to be traveled. There is no gate or sign that says they are not to be traveled, it is just part of their internal process. Debate apparently exists, as it does in the Waze forum, as to if such “restricted” roads should be mapped. The debate has to do with various things, but might include helping someone lost find their way out to MVUM roads.

Landmarks

He said that he has a recreational site database we could have. I am going to investigate others with him such as USFS facilities, watch towers, runways, tanks, water features such as lakes, etc.) I know not everything should be on the map, but wanted to give some ideas.

Ponderings

(1) If USFS road naming conventions turn out to be regional and may be handled in the US regional forum structure.

Suggested Actions

(1) I will interact more with the contact and road engineers. Let me know if you have ideas for questions.

(2) The contact will give me databases associated with the Cibola Forest (it is in NM around ABQ) first so we can take a look at it. If there is value that this community sees in having data, then we can get it for all of the US. I checked and they have roads in Alaska and Puerto Rico.

(3) The contact will give me a database of things for Landmarks, particularly recreational sites at first.

(4) Create a WIKI resource with a set of online info list for USFS with whatever naming standards are decided upon.

doctorkb wrote: My vote is that until Waze makes a new designation, any road that is unpaved needs to be marked as 4x4/Dirt.

Just to be clear on my last post, this vote would render impassable on Waze (as I understand it) many rural and western areas. We don't want that to happen.

I agree with daknife. This may be a rural / Wild West issue where those not living in such areas have little concept of how critical dirt roads are to daily travel.

Had lunch with one USFS staff from DC yesterday and I've been introduced to a GIS staff at USFS in ABQ. Also invited to the ABQ AIr Tanker base on Kirtland AFB tomorrow as he might be there. Lots of activity now because they are currently fighting a small fire in the Sandia Mountains east of ABQ. Saw the smoke this morning.

Thanks for the replies and great input. I think I understand everyone's points, and am really not biased toward a particular solution/approach at this point. I do think we should map the roads that are paved and well maintained as at least streets. After that I think this community can come up with the right approach.

I used to travel a lot of USFS roads in northern Wisconsin as a under-age driver (which you can do easily in a place with a population density of one person per 100 square miles or so) to explore, hunt, and have fun. The condition of the roads is definitely seasonal for some roads. On the other hand, some roads are so important that they are maintained well year-round.

I've made contact with the USFS and should be able to talk to a couple of their road engineers soon. I have a good friend that has been a tanker base manager in a number of regions in the SW and is in DC now that is helping. Hopefully I can get resources and advice from them and will post here. There are a lot online resources I've already cataloged.

My first focus is on standard naming conventions and a source of data on the status of roads that we might use for reference. If anyone has questions I should ask, post here or send me a PM.

I imagine exactly how to represent them consistently would be a topic of conversation here. My initial interest is getting the data and naming conventions from a good source at USFS.

In my experience, many of theses roads on the map are of type street. Few are dirt roads. Some are actually paved, many very well maintained dirt roads to the point they are essentially streets to locals, and some not well maintained. I would hope to get that kind of data, but wonder if someone here already obtained it.

Aren't we getting too complicated on all these road designations and characteristics?

I generally think what we have now is acceptable. The only thing I would change is to rename "Dirt/4x4 road" to just "4x4 road", and remove the "service road" designation. In general, I don't think the user really cares about the surface of the road. And if the surface of the road is poor (not talking about 4x4 routes), that means that the speeds on those roads will be lower, and thus, Waze will learn to avoid those routes. Also, the amount of information that needs maintained and can be out of date goes way up.

I just think we need to keep it simple, and not go crazy with road attributes.

As far a road maintenance goes, the difference between types 3 and 4 could be that some of the unpaved roads are packed real well with hard gravel making them sturdy and level enough for a passenger vehicle, even though not actually paved (type 3), while type 4 roads are actually paved.

I've seen the type 3 roads in many national forests mainly for access to camping areas, trail heads, or other more remote recreational points of interest, so that people can access them using their regular cars.