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Post by DallasGrant
Just to let everyone know, I corrected all the roads that I changed to major highways and I also used the mapping system information from mndot to figure out what county roads should be considered primary streets and changed the US-169 to a major highway where it should be ... it's all looking good now.
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Post by ktschohl
I'm an area manager for much of McLeod and Carver Counties, and have dealt extensively with classifying and reclassifying many of the state and county highways in those rural areas.

On this one, I have to side with AVdriver. I simply don't see anything that elevates the portion of MN-19 east of Redwood Falls above Minor Highway:
  • It's a state highway
  • MNDOT classification is Minor Arterial
  • Roadway is 2-lane, with a 55 MPH speed limit, no passing sections, and gravel shoulders
  • Within 40 miles, there are no fewer than five east-west highways classified as Principal Arterial - Other (MN-60, US-14, US-212, MN-7, US-12) that serve cross-state traffic
the1who, MNDOT links a PDF how-to guide on their functional classification site. Once you turn on the functional classification layer, principal arterials will be shown as the heaviest lineweight. PA-Interstate is blue; PA-Other (freeways, expressways, and other major highways) is red. A third category (PA-Other Freeways and Expressways) is orange, and only seems to be used for freeways/expressways within the Twin Cities metro area.
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Post by ktschohl
Roads like US-169 is why it would be nice to have Wisconsin-style expressways as another road type below freeway and above major highway. :-) Unfortunately, we have to make do with what Waze gives us.

West of Shakopee, there are too many at-grade crossings to consider US-169 to be a full freeway. However, it is a bona fide Major Highway -- US route, four lanes, divided, with interchanges at the busier crossings. And of course, it is MNDOT classified as PA-Other.

In my opinion, all of US-169 to the southwest of CR-69 in Shakopee should be classed as Major Highway. This includes the a Minor Highway section in downtown Saint Peter. There is a short section of freeway in Mankato near the MSU campus that could be classified either way, but should be transitioned back to Major Highway once the ad-grade crossings begin west of this intersection.
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Post by ktschohl
The only thing I am still confused on here is this definition ... based on the 3 colors shown above (blue. red, orange I get mostly freeways ... but looking at the map closer, I see some red are not freeways and only major highways ... how do we really make the clarification differences between these beyond exit and entrance ramps?
Think of Principal Arterial-Other as a catchall for any really important road that isn't a full freeway, or that has been recently upgraded to a full freeway and hasn't been reclassified yet.

The main distinction that I look for between Freeway and Major Highway is the presences of at-grade intersections. US-169 is a great example of what I call the "Wisconsin-style expressway". These are highways that are built as high-speed, divided highways with interchanges at major intersection, but that traffic levels are not high enough justify closing access from driveways and smaller crossing roads. Contrast that with US-52 between Oronoco and the outskirts of Rochester -- driveways and smaller roads dead-end before the highway, while busier roads either have overpasses or full interchanges. I would be that this segment would be reclassified as PA-Other Freeways and Expressways in the near future.
Also, I see then three classifications for a minor highways with green and yellow as minor and purple as major. This is where my confusion really stems because then hwy 19 minor but then CR-11 is considered major? and should yellow be considered a primary street?
I'll start by linking you to the FHWA's definitions and criteria of functional classification categories. Of the most interest to us is sections 2 and 3.

In a nutshell, FHWA classifies all roads as either arterials, collectors, or local streets.

Arterials are roads designed for mobility -- i.e. to move you from one side of the state to the other, and are built with capacity, speed, and tend to have fewer access points than collectors or local roads. FHWA divides arterials into four categories:
  • Principal Arterial - Interstate: Self-explanatory -- these are the blue-shielded freeways and tollways of the Interstate Highway System. In Waze, these are always classified as "Freeway".
  • Principal Arterial - Other Freeways and Expressways: These are the fully limited-access freeways and tollways that are not part of the Interstate Highway System. As far as I can tell, MNDOT has only classified freeways in the TC metro, Rochester, and Mankato as PA-OFE. There are other, new freeways in the state (US-14 bypass near Waseca, US-52 north of Rochester) that probably will be reclassified as these in the near future. Since these are limited-access, I would classify as Freeway in Waze.
  • Principal Arterial-Other: As I mentioned above, these are the remaining major highway types, and can range from important 2-lane highways that serve as the main links between portions of the state, to divided, partial-access expressways that still have an occasional at-grade crossing. In many areas, these are candidate roads to be upgraded to full freeways. Outside of urban areas, I'd consider this type to be a Major Highway by default, unless there are obvious reasons to upgrade it to a Freeway (i.e. interchanges and a lack of at-grade intersections).
  • Minor Arterial: The three Principal Arterial types are the most suited for long distance, cross-state travel. If you were driving a long-haul truck from the Twin Cities to Worthington, you might consider US-169 to MN-60 as a reasonable alternative to taking I-35 and I-90. Minor arterials are a step down; that same driver may take one of these roads across a county or two, but not across the whole state. These highways tend to have narrower shoulders, narrower travel lanes, and are more likely to have traffic control signs / devices, and to go through towns rather than bypass them. This classification includes the majority of state highways, and the more important of the county highways. In rural areas, I will almost always assign a Minor Highway type to these roads. In urban areas,the minor arterial is much more numerous (1 per mile, or denser); I'm more likely to call these Primary Streets.
Collectors are the roads designed to get traffic to and from the arterials. In urban areas, these are the main roads through a neighborhood; in rural areas, these may connect one town to another, and are likely to bend at property / section lines. In either case, they're not intended for long distance travel. These are divided into Major Collectors and Minor Collectors; the main distinction is the amount of traffic they handle, and the importance of the destinations at either end of the road. In rural areas, these encompass any County Highway that isn't an arterial, and most of the paved County Roads. I'll generally mark these as Primary Street.

Putting it all together, let's focus on the stretch of MN-19 between Gaylord and New Prague.

In this area, MN-19 is a Minor Arterial that serves as a main road for traffic between these cities, and within greater Sibley, Le Seuer, and Scott Counties. In the context of greater Minnesota, it feeds traffic to / from the Principal Arterials of I-35, US-169, MN-15, and US-71. Its functional classification and designation as a state highway both support its Waze classification as a Minor Highway.

In contrast, CR-11 in Le Seuer County is classified a Major Collector. It is a paved road, and seems to have the primary purpose of connecting Le Center, the surrounding rural areas, and MN-19 and MN-99. If this road was in a area I manage, I would categorize it as a Primary Street.
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Post by the1who
Based on Andy's work with Jason, at the meetup the made a great presentation of how to translate the DOT Functional Classification to Waze's road types. According to both translations presented, minor arterial gets a minor highway translation. Here is MNDOT FC map for Sibley county for this particular permalink you provided above: Sibley

It is even classified as a minor arterial all the way to the West boundary past Winthrop and Gibbon. Just some food for thought. Is there another reason it should be higher classified? I would recommend down grading the road type to help other major arterial road types potentially, from what we have gathered.
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Post by the1who
I should have been more specific in my last message, for that I apologize, I was typing real quick after I found the NFC for the state.

I wouldn't solely and completely rely on the NFC as they can become dated too. I just was putting that for reference. If they do need to be major highway, then we should see the reasons for that, if they need to be minor, we should see the reasons for that too. I was just trying to provide some more information.

At the meetup, we discussed it, but what I didn't disclose there is that even then they had issues with translations in certain areas. I know I have been beating the drum for some translation to work, and I should be more forthcoming that even though I suggest it as a potential way to look at the problem with a resolution, it should still be just considered guidance information, for a reference, much like looking at GIS sites too. I hope this all makes sense.

I also move to have this topic moved to the state forum for any further discussion since it is relatively local and not nationwide related. Thanks!
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Post by the1who
DallasGrant wrote:

I don't like the idea of downgrading the county highways as a primary street
Ok, well, I might just be picking apart the words since I am doing this real quick on a break at work. I am not asking that you downgrade to a primary street. From what I read, you had at a major highway, and it was downgraded to minor. I meant, which probably from my lack of clarity, "does it need to be higher than a minor highway?" I was referencing the translation of the NFC of a minor arterial to a minor highway as the lowest for your case you have brought as an example. I saw where you have most of it a major highway. And I see where AV has it at a minor in your permalink. I was trying to say is there reason for it to be major or can it be downgraded to the minor in what you quoted me.

Anyways, just trying to explain that, that I am not recommending them be at a primary street but at least a minor and what if any reason do they need to be a major.

I can explain a major highway classification in Missouri for a state highway, which since I joined in 2010 had always been a minor highway, based off what I learned from the Wiki, but after some thought and realization that Waze doesn't even want to route you this way even though it is a very good alternative route, it kept wanting to go back 100 some miles to get to the same point. But it, according to the MODOT FC was considered a major arterial. Considering this, and some ideas that were tossed around at the Meetup in Palo Alto, I thought I'd use that translation, which I only gave a snippet for the one we are referencing here, but I used the translation and now routing works as appropriate as it should.

So one thing was learned is that even though they told us road types have no bearing, in this case it did not want to route long distance over the minor highway route. So hence I asked if there was the reasoning to maintain it at a major highway, considering that the FC map is outdated (2008 rev) and some thoughts on that. There is a stretch in KS of highway that is considered minor arterial, and I have driven it, based on speeds of 70 mph, I have considered it to stay at a major highway classification. So just giving some ideas there on how we want to help this rural MN roads out. Let me know if I am needing to help with any of my explanations there. Again, real quick like as I am at work on break. Thanks!
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Post by the1who
I wish the show legend button actually showed a legend. But I would say without having that legend, it is up for interpretation what they meant right. I mean, going to I-35 looking at how they code that on their map, then to US-169, and then Hwy 19. It certainly would be considered an arterial, but now is that major or minor, something MNDOT would have to answer I am sure. I could quickly jump the gun and say major based on some of the other intersecting highways. But like with FC, we should use these tools and resources as a guide and reference for any of these discrepancies that we come across. You make a valid case and I am not trying to single out any one particular resolution without of course this healthy discussion.

I don't have the local knowledge of that particular area. In Iowa, some County Routes aren't necessarily something that should be classified more than the primary street at best, as in some cases they are on dirt roads too. Going off your post about the county highways there being paved and all that is.

Your statement about the two way highways is true. Some of these guidelines we have to consider are for more urbanized circumstances and don't take rural routing into consideration that a highway in the boondocks is the only highway, it technically is a major arterial, and in some aspects would be a major highway. We have the uniqueness of the Plains states with vast country roads and routes. I didn't change the state highway from minor to major just to hack the routing system, I did do it because I reviewed the FC and realized it has a higher class then what we have given it and considered it worthwhile changing. which could probably apply to MN-19.

I used to thump the Wiki hard about the road type section about what a major highway is (US) and minor (state) and code the roads around KC, Omaha, and Des Moines based on that. Probably a bad way to do it considering today, and knowing that the state highway limited the major highway example I gave above. Knowing more about road types and classifications, it is worth considering all map sources out there, even down to the city level. Do you have any city maps that might depict this route, maybe even the county? I know many cities around me have GIS resources, and my city uses the county in the end when I asked them at city hall. I have been able to find many except one location in Michigan one time. I wonder what you'll find.
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