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Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by MeridianHills
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-86.27 ... 01&env=usa

Location: Indianapolis, Indiana ---> Intersection: I-465 & US 40/ Washington Street ( Exit 12)

US 40/ Washington Street heading eastbound wishing to join I-465 N/S is now required to "exit" at S Dukane Way. At S Dukane Way, two lanes come out to the right with one lane each designated for I-465 N/ I-465 S and from that point onward to the ramp that deviates to I-465 N there is a legal separation of traffic ( bicycle lane). Also to add into the mix, the right lane ( to I-465 S) also has a lane that comes out right for traffic turning south onto S High School Rd. Next, just past the intersection of US 40/Washington Street & S High School Road, there is a traffic light at the end of the ramp from I-465 S to Washington Street. All traffic heading eastbound stops at the light.

So far there have been no UR's from Wazers missing their exit yet, but my question is should the ramps to I-465 N/S start a S Dukane Way? Or would it be better suited for the ramps to I-465 N/S begin immediately past the S High School Rd interchange?
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by Bigbear3764
Comes down to "Is the instruction going to be too late to make the movement to the ramp?"

If they are going to I-465 N, will that ramp instruction be too late for someone to get over and on to it? Anything preventing them from entering the ramp from where it is, like a Jersey barrier?
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by Daknife
I'd get your RC Gizmoguy in on this. (and for future reference you'll get region specific questions like this answered/resolved faster if you post in the appropriate region and state.) As the imagery is behind the times (as usual), this is probably going to take a L4 or higher to actually drive it and figure out how to best do the ramp/lanes.

Don't you love it when DOT's get creative?
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by GizmoGuy411
I am looking at this now too.

Further input from other higher level editors is welcome.
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by GizmoGuy411
Without recent aerials and street views a visual of this area may be needed to best decide how to handle it. While reviewing it from information available, I have more questions than answers.

Have you looked for DOT construction diagrams to show how it should look?

Is construction complete?

Despite the aerials being a bit too old, it looks like W Washington EB starts to widen significantly at S Glen Arm Rd. How has traffic patterns changed for turns in this area? Are there any physical barriers? Knowing this info may suggest that W Washington may need to be split from there to Waldemere Ave.

What are the laws about crossing the bike lane? Are there any relative signs in the area?

Where are the signs for entrances to the I-465?

I'll look at this more later when I have more time. Regardless, I doubt I would have any recommendations without more info.
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by GizmoGuy411
Wow.. that image from INDOT took forever to load from my hotel room in Richmond Indiana. Maybe I should take the very long way home and see this intersection for myself.

Any chance you could safely get pics of the intersection and especially the signs.

I'm leaning towards part of sketch's suggestion, using "to" but I need to study it more soon. I may temporarily edit there to test a couple of things. Watch for it.
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by MeridianHills
There is only a bicycle lane that separates mainline traffic from exiting traffic up to just past the traffic light for the off ramp of I-465 S. Then the ramp going to I-465 N begins deviating towards the right while the bicycle lane continues straight. For turning traffic from S High School that is wishing to join I-465 missing the exit lane/ramps is a very high probability but not so much for traffic on Washington Street.
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by MeridianHills
GizmoGuy411 wrote:Without recent aerials and street views a visual of this area may be needed to best decide how to handle it. While reviewing it from information available, I have more questions than answers.

Have you looked for DOT construction diagrams to show how it should look?

Is construction complete?

Despite the aerials being a bit too old, it looks like W Washington EB starts to widen significantly at S Glen Arm Rd. How has traffic patterns changed for turns in this area? Are there any physical barriers? Knowing this info may suggest that W Washington may need to be split from there to Waldemere Ave.

What are the laws about crossing the bike lane? Are there any relative signs in the area?

Where are the signs for entrances to the I-465?

I'll look at this more later when I have more time. Regardless, I doubt I would have any recommendations without more info.

Here is the best diagram as provided from INDOT: http://www.in.gov/indot/images/MPA465_W ... t_2012.jpg the diagram doesn't accurately depict the split in the lanes that are heading East on Washington/US 40 verses traffic exiting towards I-465. For traffic wishing to join I-465 from eastbound Washington Street, they must make their decision at S Dukane because that is where the lanes for 465 come out and crossing solid white bike lane lines is forbidden in Indiana. The first set of signs for I-465 are at Washington-US 40 & S Dukane and the second set ( for traffic coming from S High School Rd wishing to join 465) is just past the intersection of Washington & S High School Road. After the right ramp ( to 465 S) splits right the left lane slants right and there is a few meters gap for a short distance then the ramp curves to join I-465 N...
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Re: Ramps beginning several lights before split?

Post by sketch
Of course the ramp to 465 N needs to be moved up/reconfigured, if I'm understanding correctly.

You could put the junction between the ramp and the road at the intersection with High School. Not completely accurate, but it could work okay. Still, there's a pretty substantial distance between Dukane and High School.

In the alternative, you could put the junction at its correct location, at or near Dukane. The question then becomes "what to do with High School".
  • You could create a junction with the ramp, disable the right from Washington to High School, leave the first ramp segment unnamed, then the first exit instruction becomes either "exit right, at I-465" or "exit right, at High School Rd", depending on where you're going. Slightly confusing, since it probably doesn't mention High School Rd at the split.
  • Alternatively, you could do as above, but name the ramp segment, and the first instruction would be for I-465, but the second would be for High School Rd if you were going that way. A bit more confusing than above.
  • A third option would be to leave the current intersection with High School as-is, and not to join the ramp with High School. Of course, this is technically wrong. Whether this would be confusing or not would probably depend on the physical configuration, though. Someone turning right just ahead would likely be in the right lane already to prepare for this, so it depends on whether it looks like a ramp or just another part of the road.
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