MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Coming soon... (to your city)

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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby AeRoBianCo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:18 pm

For the inaugural event ¿where would be the Permalink for the "selfie shot" on the editor and at what time in UTC?
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby Aquivoyllendo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:34 am

Thank you very much for the invitation to orbitc and the others coordinators enhket and asterix06 of China MR.


greetings from Colombia

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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby aragonns » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:04 pm

Many thanks orbitc, ready to edit
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby arfanieyanu » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:53 am

go go go.... :D
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby Babbegeier » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:13 pm

Thanks to orbitc and hello to all! :D
Looking forward to join the raid!
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby camilo-ro » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:16 pm

Thanks Orbitc


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby chengkeith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:20 pm

Hello MapRaiders,

I am from Hong Kong and I am a Level 2 editor locally.

For those of you who are not familiar with the area, Hong Kong is a small 1000km² region covered by Zone 4 of this MapRaid China event.

However, please note that we have different driving rules as China. For example, we drive on the left of the road (as opposed to right in China). Our road segments also have different naming conventions (English first, followed by Traditional Chinese). Although politically we are a part of China, in Waze we are a separate country.

Being a local in Hong Kong, I am pleased to see a MapRaid to cover the place where I live, yet I notice that a number of massive edits come from global editors has irritated me a bit.

The MapRaid Wiki has set a standard for Road Locks based on Road Types:
https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/USA/MegaMapRaid/August2017#Road_Locks
Image

which results in all highways and freeways being locked to Level 3+

Yet in Hong Kong, we are a small community and we still lack experienced editors at Level 3+, and thus I think we should have a lower lock rank for these roads. We only have two active editors, namely leocylau and Editot, to have achieved Level 3+ rank. If we lock all the roads with L3, the two of them will be busy dealing with downlock requests from other editors like me.

Allow me to quote from Waze Wiki's "Best Map Editing Practice" (https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Best_map_editing_practice#Locking_Segments):
Code: Select all
NEVER lock a segment unless you are sure that it and everything that touches it (junctions, turn restrictions, and other segments) is 100% complete and correct.


Therefore unless an editor is local to Hong Kong and has verified that the segments are 100% complete and correct, he/she should just leave the road lock levels as Auto.

Having only started Waze editing two months ago, I still consider myself new to Waze editing. I would say, many a time I still find road segments being manually locked while they are not 100% correct, which proves that roads in Hong Kong are still far from perfect and are not ready to be manually locked (massively).

I hope this message can be passed to all Zone 4 editors to tell them not to touch the road locks in Hong Kong. Thanks.

P.S. A similar post has been made on the Hong Kong local forum
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby chengkeith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:46 am

Hi orbitc,

I was just expressing my feelings as I suddenly found that a lot of segments got massively locked. Therefore, no I have not talked to Leo before hand, and I am not aware that you have discussed with him before deciding the lock standards. I am happy to talk to any/both of you about my thoughts. I have also written a new post on the Hong Kong local forum. I know Leo check that forum frequently so he'll see my post.

I mean, Mapraid is good stuff as it improves the map, locks are somehow necessary too in the sense that they prevent bad people from making harmful edits to the map.

Yet, are editors still following the "Best Map Editing Practice" as I quoted above before putting a lock on a segment?

My standpoint is, I am fine with locks (at any level), but please, please make 100% sure the map (junctions/turn restrictions/segment connections/etc) is correct before putting a lock on it. Locks are the last thing you put on the map after you have done all the edits and checks. Merely adding locks (without verifying all these) does no improvements to the map at all. The MapRaid has only started two days and people are already putting massive locks on segments. This is not something I expect to see.

Anyway, I'm happy to talk to you. Let's discuss and see what we can do. The locks are already in place within minutes, so it's probably too late for me to make this post and hope for a revert.
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby chengkeith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:11 pm

So now that my whole country's (Minor Highways/Major Highways/Freeways) has been locked, what is the way forward? Do you still agree that road segments should be locked when editors clearly have not followed Best Map Editing Practice to ensure the segment is 100% mapped correctly?

In Waze, we do not allow people to edit outside their editable area (i.e. within a certain radius of roads they have driven in the past 90 days or unless they are too familiar with the area and become AM/CM). This is to ensure people who make edits are the people who knows / are familiar with the area. After the map has been completed by these people, they can lock the map according to an agreed lock standard to prevent bad people from vandalizing the map.

However, MapRaid is of a different nature. It allows MapRaiders from around the globe to temporarily make edits to an area they are not familiar with. With almost zero knowledge to an area, no trustable map source, no Google Street View, how can they ensure the map is correctly mapped? What they can do is to just create empty (no name) road segments according to satellite images/GPS points. They probably don't even speak the local language, and cannot even fill in the name of the road segments. For example, being a local, I drive the same route every day, I know I need to get into the exit lane 1km before a freeway exit. If I don't do that, there will be a solid line marking on the road (meaning do not cross) that prevents me from getting into the exit lane. In that case, I will need to set the exit ramp such that it is 1km before the actual exit location. This is what I call it local knowledge, and I am expecting this kind of quality in my country before I would consider the map is 100% correctly mapped (hence can be locked). If an exit ramp exists but it is not set before the do-not-cross marking, I still consider the map less than perfect.

Do you see the problem? This is the limitation of MapRaids, by nature. It is impossible for a foreign MapRaider to achieve such quality and hence be able to set a lock on a road segment, unless the MapRaider is also a local himself.

The purpose of locks are to prevent bad people from doing harm. One should not lock a segment simply because it matches a certain road type and thus needs to be locked.

orbitc, I don't know how long ago when you were still a Level 1 or 2, probably years ago. What I saw here is that some high rank editors massively set locks at the beginning of a MapRaid. It may have no impact to you, or to other participants of this MapRaid China event, because everyone in this MapRaid is at least Level 3+. Other MapRaiders can still make further changes to the locked segments, and the only people who are impacted by this are the low rank locals.

So to move forward, as the MapRaid organizer, what further measures will you make other than reminding MapRaiders to check their work before locking segments? It has been proven that reminders (no matter how many times) are insufficent to prevent a segment being locked before it is correctly mapped. As I said, one may feel it is okay to lock the segments to Level 3 as it does not impact other MapRaid participants (who are also at least Level 3).

As the majority of MapRaiders are not local, would you consider advising them to just leave the road locks at Auto? Or at least wait until a local editor confirms the segment is correctly mapped?

Last but not least, this is what I concern most, what would you do the roads in Hong Kong which have already been massively locked by an editor? All the freeways that can be seen at zoom level 0 in this Permalink are locked by him, and the last modified time is within minutes. (Sorry I did not select the affected segments in the permalink because there are simply too many segments at zoom level 0). I am less concerned about China as it is outside my editable area. I will not be able to update that part of the map anyway. Hence I am not in a position to judge what lock levels should be placed in other parts of China.

Up to this point, I still agree that locks are necessary. I just do not agree that they should be set before the segments are 100% correctly mapped. If you have clicked the above permalink, you will understand how these locks have been massively set by one single editor.

I know China is big, and we have a enormous piece of land to cover in a short two weeks' window. It does not mean we should sacrifice quality over quantity. On one hand, you said you want to ensure quality, on the other hand, you defend for that editor making massive edits. I will be very disappointed if this is the case. :|
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Re: MapRaid China [Area & Groups]

Postby chengkeith » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:26 pm

orbitc wrote:First of all, we are ONLY working on the portion of the country as you can see here
When I said country, I meant my local country (known as "Hong Kong (China)" by Waze) which is this small area denoted by the arrow. It is covered in Zone 4 by this MR China event but it is a separate country from "China" in Waze.
ChinaRaid-HK.jpeg
ChinaRaid-HK.jpeg (37.57 KiB) Viewed 1294 times


orbitc wrote:Everyone is adding brand new roads, where there were no road existed before to improve connectivity. Once these roads are updated correctly they are lock to make sure inexperience editors damage the map intentionally or unintentionally.

I agree. In most parts of this MR, i.e. in the country "China", a lot of roads are still missing and needs to be added brand new. Even freeways are missing. Mapraiders can focus on drawing these inter-city trunk roads first.

In my country ("Hong Kong (China)"), map is relatively more well developed than the country "China". Local editors like me focus mainly on fine adjustments such as the exit lane example I mentioned in my previous post. This is the job that foreign MapRaiders cannot do and should be left for locals to complete the map.
orbitc wrote:We value the importance of the local editors. That's the reason why the minimum rank requirement didn't apply for the locals. So, if you are local and like to help during this raid, you would be able to. your local knowledge is limited to where you drove and you would be doing the same exact thing as the other mapraid participants when it comes to other cities. You will be doing the same exact things as the other MR participants of this Raid. Keep in mind that this is for to improve countries road segments. No one can guarantee 100% perfection even in well developed countries, with streetview and that local knowledge. But, we must do our best to improve the map as best as possible to give options to local to use Waze app and develop GPS tracks.
Oh I didn't know that! If I knew there were no minimum rank requirement for locals, I would have signed up this MR :lol: I did click into the Google Form back in June, and when I saw I need to choose my current rank, I gave up as I am not high rank enough.

orbitc wrote:I disagree that these massive locks where we have no roads to lock. We needed to build these freeways fist to lock them. There were many roads that were locked 4 and even 5 where we lowered it to 3. I haven't come across these many locals you are referring either. Would you get me connect with them? I'm also told that local government doesn't allow locals to set the map, please confirm if that's the case?
I have only started Waze editing two months ago (not a long time). During my two months editing, I have only seen three people actively editing the map (namely tsemanhei (2), leocylau (5) and Editot (5)). Other editors have either become inactive, or they have not made enough editing footprints in the past two months for me to remember their names. Leo is our CM and Editot is our AM (CM or AM doesn't matter too much as the entire country isn't that big). All my downlock requests in the local Hong Kong forum is processed by Leo alone (Thanks Leo!). I know that Leo is sometimes very busy as he is also an AM in Newcastle, UK. Sometimes a downlock request can take a few days before it is seen by him and processed by him. Therefore, I would avoid raising a downlock request as much as possible, both to relief his workload, and to fix a map problem quicker.

I do not know other locals in other parts of China as it is outside my editable area.

Regarding restrictions by China, I am afraid I am not able to answer this question. I am only local to Hong Kong, but I am not a local to China. China has more restrictive laws, and maps are sensitive materials in national security context (Conspiracy: They worry someone getting hold of an accurate map of their military facility will make the military facility vulnerable to missile attacks) which is why Google Maps is almost unusable in China. If you have travelled to China, you will find that Google Maps is always off by a random offset between 500 metres to 1km. They have imposed a funny algorithm with the GPS coordinate system. This is a big enough offset to render maps unusable by civilians. They don't care, as protecting a military facility is their 1st priority. Anyway I have talked too far. Back to your questions, are local citizens allowed to create maps? The answer is I don't know :?

orbitc wrote:Just for your info, the editor you are mentioning in that permalink isn't part of MapRaid China. He/she did NOT get that area from us to edit in China based on our application sheet. It is possible that this person has the area because he/she was there on holiday or somehow received editing area by driving there. If that's the case, he may have the local knowledge as you pointed earlier. Further looking at it, he has an AM area there and appear to be local. ;)
I would like to know who, if any, in my team in Mapraid China is locking things in mass without checking to make sure roads are mapped correctly. They will be removed from this MapRaid and possible blocked/banned from editing entirely. Having said that, I stand behind everyone in my team to do the right thing in this Mapraid. As I said before, we are here to do good...NOT harm the map... The quality edit is utmost importance.
No, not him. Editot is our AM. As far as I know, he does make a lot of small Geometry edits, but it does not appear to me he is abusing or vandalizing the map recently.
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