Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Ericular » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Can't we all just be on the same team, working towards the same end result of producing the best navigation app out there?

I imagine a world where every driver used Waze. The ultimate realization of "perfected" navigation. Every road has accurate, live speed data, routing is efficient, destination arrival times are dead-on. So then I think - how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports? In my very limited frame of reference, I think new users in my area will experience (and be turned off by) map issues more often than lack of live data and incident reports. Perhaps this is why the points scales are tilted a bit towards editors vs. drivers.

That said, we all need each other, right? Drivers would be lost (literally) without the millions of edits made by dedicated editors over the years. Editors benefit from user reports, automatically identified map errors, GPS tracks, road paving, etc. Drivers also provide incentive. I edit roads I've never driven and never will, in the hopes that I can help someone else have a good experience. If I was the only driver using the data, I wouldn't bother with those roads.

Can't we all just get along? :mrgreen:
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby foxitrot » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:45 pm

My off-topic thought:
Ericular wrote:... how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports?

Since my beginning with Waze, my opinion was always that Waze will never be able to make a real breakthrough, until the client will be able to calculate a decent route in offline mode, off course including the knowledge of such trivialities like house numbers and POIs. While being a useful and appealing navi, it could convince high percentage of its users or testers to make use of its wonderful online features. Otherwise, it will possibly never spread itself out of the most populated metropolitan areas.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby sahls72 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:08 pm

I use Waze to navigate across the country. User reports are very important to me.

Most of my destinations drop me into very rural areas so I tend to find many unedited communities. Or even worse, partially edited communities. Therefore editors are very important to me.

I drive all day then edit in the hotel room. My reward is a selfish one and does not include points or gold stars. I can now use Waze when I revisit those communities. Without a doubt, the most important areas to keep in order are the major population centers but there are plenty of opportunities for points if you look outside of them.

I think a nice feature, to have would be allowing people to edit along routes before they drive off. Plan a trip on the live map, look for problems, then fix them before you hit the road. It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby razor2k » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:58 pm

sahls72 wrote: It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.


Can you permalink some examples?
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby jasonh300 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:17 pm

sahls72 wrote:It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.


This sort of thing should be reported to your Regional Coordinator immediately with a permalink. Vandalism of the map is taken very seriously.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby sahls72 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:25 am

I can probably find the town again but it's already fixed. It was a small town I drove through on my way out to Fort Riley. I didn't report it because the editing was done in early 2012, the editor was lvl 1, and there wasn't much for GPS tracks in the area. I figured if an editor that was editing in 2012 and was still lvl 1, probably wasn't around anymore.

I will do better about reporting oddities in the future.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby TruckOttr » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:32 am

jasonh300 wrote:
sahls72 wrote:It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.


This sort of thing should be reported to your Regional Coordinator immediately with a permalink. Vandalism of the map is taken very seriously.


Check out western CO, and southern parts of WY. I think most of western CO may have been remedied (by doing a ground scorching level 5 lockdown of everything in some towns), but there were still a few "areas of question" last time I looked.

EDIT: Hmmm...After doing a recheck, it looks like you were involved in the ground scorch of Grand Junction, CO and surrounding environs so you have seen the persistent vandalism that occurs in less monitored areas.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Daknife » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:33 pm

To be honest it sounds like the editor in question was just learning the process, and just cleard directionality but not turn restrictions, I've seen that many times (and was guilty a couple times early in my career). Rarely was it intentional, but rather not fully understanding how the various edits work together.

A town so edited with just a couple Waze traces through it once in a while will get a few soft turns set by the system resulting in zig-zag routes as you described.

As to the so called lv5 ground scorch locks that's more often just from the days when the practice was to lock everything so the autoedit system wouldn't undo edits. That system is no longer active and those locks have been mostly removed. I've cleaned up large portions of UT, WY, NV, and western CO and the closest to vandalism (unless you are talking about me) ;-) was when Gspot went through Idaho in early 2012 blanket fixing directionality but doing nothing for turn restrictions or even verifying if the roads from the basemap import even existed. But that just meant plenty of edits left for me.

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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby skbun » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 pm

foxitrot wrote:My off-topic thought:
Ericular wrote:... how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports?

Since my beginning with Waze, my opinion was always that Waze will never be able to make a real breakthrough, until the client will be able to calculate a decent route in offline mode, off course including the knowledge of such trivialities like house numbers and POIs. While being a useful and appealing navi, it could convince high percentage of its users or testers to make use of its wonderful online features. Otherwise, it will possibly never spread itself out of the most populated metropolitan areas.


Wait, what? I find this to be patently false in my own experience, and in fact I would say that Waze is ALREADY becoming useful - and used - in rural areas. Here's what I find.

1. I find some URs (usually using something like LMUR that lets me zoom way the heck out), showing that someone is attempting to use Waze in a rural area.
2. I fix their problems, and try to make the surrounding area navigable, recognizing that they're trying to use it.
3. I spread outward, fixing some of the larger highways and the general area. At that point, let's say that 10-20 miles from that area, you can get from basic place to place.
4. Suddenly...there are Wazers out there after a few months. There aren't a LOT, and maybe they throw a UR out there once every two months or even longer - the only real evidence that they're using those improvements, but why should there be more? For every 100 Wazers in Chicago, there might be ten, if one is lucky, in Grand Island, Nebraska, and one in Gleason, Wisconsin - if the map works there. None of this reduces the utility of fixing the map in that smaller place.

The best way to make Waze usable in rural areas is to fix the problems there. And I can tell you for certain, I've DONE that in say, Northern California. The first few rows, 1A through 9D on this map? http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tsip/hseb/crs_maps/

I've done this, among other things:
Classified all roads in that area by functional class
Done basic short naming conventions and verification of directionals, split roads, etc, according to California's naming standard.
Identified and created cities where they did not exist in the basemap
Created missing segments in classified roads (and there were an awful lot of them) - a missing segment in a road means noone will ever be routed onto it!

(I do agree that Waze DOES need to allow GPS coordinate navigation to be cached when a user's phone network is offline, absolutely. We miss a lot of speed data because that doesn't work properly, but that's a different issue. At that point, if we have a completely workable rural map and Waze doesn't work because of mobile network signal gaps, that can be brought to Waze to say 'Okay, it's really REALLY time to fix this now.' And...we're kinda there.)
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby porubcan » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:20 am

I think that Foxo just pointed out that Waze penetration outside of metro-areas is still very low. several reasons:

* in rural areas the traffic is usually not that high (comparing to the city), so the main benefit of waze is getting less important. also there are less options for alternative routes in small cities and also domestic drivers knows small towns good enough to deal with actual situation.

* waze miss some basic functions when comparing to other satnavs - missing house numbers, PoIs, offline mode. and that's why many poeple use competitor's products (tomtom, navigon, garmin, sygic...)

* waze map is improving rapidly in cities first, rural areas improve slower. many users quit using waze after first try just because map condition was bad. gladly map is being improved all the time allowing user community to grow faster. also map condition in rural areas is very good these days in my country.


so either there will become troubles with traffic also in smaller towns or waze will improve features (devs) and reliability (map editors community) to get higher penetration outside metro areas.
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