Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby CBenson » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:31 pm

daknife wrote:I continued to expand across the state until I hit enough points for CM status

Just for completeness sake, I don't think this is correct. I think you completed enough edits for CM status. You don't rise in though the editing permissions by point count.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Daknife » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:05 am

karantechie wrote:i completely agree with what has been posted, Priority should be given to the people who are on the road driving and reporting, Map editors should be given on some other category and they can have ranking among map editors and not in common, This will make people to show less interest if they cannot see their name on the top after driving and reporting so much :) just my view and not offending any one in particular

Please support your position, since the maps would be worthless (and usually were) for driving and accurate navigation without the untold hours spent by editors making the maps useable, updating them to match new construction, and other changes in the road system.

For example in late 2011, When I joined, you could semi-reliably navigate around the Greater Sal Lake City Metro area on the interstates and a few primary routes. Other than that and Waze had you zig-zagging all over the place. That despite editing efforts in the area dating back to the US Maps going live in 2009. Within a few months I and a couple others, but mostly me had cleaned up the four county metro area. I continued to expand across the state until I hit enough points for CM status and looked to neighboring states. At the time Las Vegas was in even worse condition than SLC had been. I cleaned it up enough for it to become usable, locals started using it and are doing the job now, Ditto for the Reno area, Northern Idaho and Eastern Idaho (Idaho Falls to Rigby). I've also traced thousands of miles of rural US and state Hwy's across the west, some of them major traffic routes (US 93 between Las Vegas and Phoenix). Almost every single one of them (including US 93) had multiple breaks in the road that made long distance navigation impossible. Waze had a distance limitation but you couldn't even travel that far without Waze throwing a fit because the roads would have disconnected nodes in the middle of nowhere preventing that route from being used. I found the 93 problem based on a User report posted from a user's driveway in Provo Utah.

Now what have the drivers done to equal those hours and hours of work (enjoyable work in my opinion but still time I could have spent doing something else)? Yes you provide travel data. But Waze can route someone down a new but correctly drawn route without any travel data. It can't/won't route anyone down a broken route, no matter how many people are driving it and reporting map problems until an editor fixes the problem.

Btw nice thread necromancy there only four months from a year with no posts on this thread.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby karantechie » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:36 pm

i completely agree with what has been posted, Priority should be given to the people who are on the road driving and reporting, Map editors should be given on some other category and they can have ranking among map editors and not in common, This will make people to show less interest if they cannot see their name on the top after driving and reporting so much :) just my view and not offending any one in particular
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby DallasGrant » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:48 am

There are many reasons why I don't agree with you that we are only sitting behind a computer.

First off, I am a level 3 Wazer with just about 5k shy of 100,000 edits. I can only edit within 4 miles of where I travel, and when I started editing, I could only edit within (I believe) a quarter mile of where I traveled. With that at hand, if I want to edit more, I not only have to drive to this location, but often I cannot tell the real travel of the roads until I drive the actual road itself. The more rural one goes in editing, the more the aerial views give too limited of a viewpoint to even tell if that road is paved or not.

As you can see by my profile below, not all my usage is just editing, but also not most of my usage is due to alerts because many of the drives I do are on roads that not much occur.

389989 points
Map Updates: 94464
Driving Alerts: 159
New Recorded Miles: 19.6
Existing Miles: 15222.3
Resolved Update Requests: 329
Forum Posts: 30
Waze Cookie Eater feet: 1583484.3

I also admit that I don't turn on my waze everyday because my standard route to work only has one 12 mile path to get there so realistically I could have much more miles than actually reported.

My main reason I don't believe posting alerts should give more points is the fact that then too many false reports would happen. I see this for edits all the time. I altered something, then someone else edits the same segment but really are not altering the segment at all (if they did, it was to move a point a millimeter to the right then back). At least on the map editing, these false points are not affecting the navigation of the map where as the user reports (aside from reports for the map editors) would be alerting the users about incidences that are not there and eventually annoying them to the point they stop using this app.

Keep in mine, while I would love to work on the maps as a full time job and get paid for this, but I don't. When I started using waze, the maps were a mess everywhere I went unless I stuck to the major highways. Thanks to my edits and edits of others like me, I am able to navigate for many miles, but this has forced me to use my own money and resources just to find more and more areas with issues. Almost every city I travel to has incorrect mapping of wrong street names, poor naming at intersections to give good guidance to exits and exits, or incorrect labeling of directions of the streets. In some small towns, every road is labeled with "unknown" for driving directions meaning that a person going to this location may be brought to an area close to the street that are to travel to and basically be told to figure it out from there. Even a small town of 2000 people requires hours of work and sometimes it requires me to drive many of the streets just to figure out what the real name of the street is and if any street would be considered primary.

And while I said that I can edit within 4 miles of where I have been, keep in mind that if I haven't been to this area in a while (I think it is just 3 months but I might be wrong), then I loose the ability to edit that area. Yes, some wazers and edit basically everywhere, but they earned it. Making a report that you seen a police officer, roadkill, something in the road and such is very important, but that step does not require you to travel outside of where you would normally travel so in a lot of ways you are not using a lot of your own resources to do so. Yes, we are spending hours behind a computer (often everyday), but that is volunteered hours that we will not earn a dime for even though we are one of the main reasons that people use Waze. I know a lot of the roads I have traveled are because I legitimately had a reason to travel the roads, but often I take other routes either to edit the area, see how the road has changed from resent construction, or to analyse the road types. I have probably spent over 1,000$ or more in gas just to travel to areas I normally wouldn't for the benefit of Waze.

Just today alone, I took a trip down a road because I had a strong feeling something changed in the road. The road moved and it is only half done. When I returned home, I fixed this move, but now I realize that I forgot to check street signs for some of the roads that enter this new road and the name of what the old street became since the new road is named what the old street was named. This entire trip may be just 20 total miles outside of my way, but this mistake of mine means that I need to head back a second time and this time I will need to travel some of the other roads around it taking even more time out of my time to travel on a road I only travel on about once every 2 years because there is no reason to drive this road unless you want a scenic drive (it is out of the way for most people, but not everyone).

Sorry that I went on a tangent here, but I think your logic is flawed. I believe that you would not want to use the app if the area you travel was not edited to offer you routes that make sense, you would not be doing much reporting (aside to tell us to get to work) as you would be finding a different app to navigate.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby porubcan » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:20 am

I think that Foxo just pointed out that Waze penetration outside of metro-areas is still very low. several reasons:

* in rural areas the traffic is usually not that high (comparing to the city), so the main benefit of waze is getting less important. also there are less options for alternative routes in small cities and also domestic drivers knows small towns good enough to deal with actual situation.

* waze miss some basic functions when comparing to other satnavs - missing house numbers, PoIs, offline mode. and that's why many poeple use competitor's products (tomtom, navigon, garmin, sygic...)

* waze map is improving rapidly in cities first, rural areas improve slower. many users quit using waze after first try just because map condition was bad. gladly map is being improved all the time allowing user community to grow faster. also map condition in rural areas is very good these days in my country.


so either there will become troubles with traffic also in smaller towns or waze will improve features (devs) and reliability (map editors community) to get higher penetration outside metro areas.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby skbun » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:57 pm

foxitrot wrote:My off-topic thought:
Ericular wrote:... how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports?

Since my beginning with Waze, my opinion was always that Waze will never be able to make a real breakthrough, until the client will be able to calculate a decent route in offline mode, off course including the knowledge of such trivialities like house numbers and POIs. While being a useful and appealing navi, it could convince high percentage of its users or testers to make use of its wonderful online features. Otherwise, it will possibly never spread itself out of the most populated metropolitan areas.


Wait, what? I find this to be patently false in my own experience, and in fact I would say that Waze is ALREADY becoming useful - and used - in rural areas. Here's what I find.

1. I find some URs (usually using something like LMUR that lets me zoom way the heck out), showing that someone is attempting to use Waze in a rural area.
2. I fix their problems, and try to make the surrounding area navigable, recognizing that they're trying to use it.
3. I spread outward, fixing some of the larger highways and the general area. At that point, let's say that 10-20 miles from that area, you can get from basic place to place.
4. Suddenly...there are Wazers out there after a few months. There aren't a LOT, and maybe they throw a UR out there once every two months or even longer - the only real evidence that they're using those improvements, but why should there be more? For every 100 Wazers in Chicago, there might be ten, if one is lucky, in Grand Island, Nebraska, and one in Gleason, Wisconsin - if the map works there. None of this reduces the utility of fixing the map in that smaller place.

The best way to make Waze usable in rural areas is to fix the problems there. And I can tell you for certain, I've DONE that in say, Northern California. The first few rows, 1A through 9D on this map? http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tsip/hseb/crs_maps/

I've done this, among other things:
Classified all roads in that area by functional class
Done basic short naming conventions and verification of directionals, split roads, etc, according to California's naming standard.
Identified and created cities where they did not exist in the basemap
Created missing segments in classified roads (and there were an awful lot of them) - a missing segment in a road means noone will ever be routed onto it!

(I do agree that Waze DOES need to allow GPS coordinate navigation to be cached when a user's phone network is offline, absolutely. We miss a lot of speed data because that doesn't work properly, but that's a different issue. At that point, if we have a completely workable rural map and Waze doesn't work because of mobile network signal gaps, that can be brought to Waze to say 'Okay, it's really REALLY time to fix this now.' And...we're kinda there.)
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Daknife » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:33 pm

To be honest it sounds like the editor in question was just learning the process, and just cleard directionality but not turn restrictions, I've seen that many times (and was guilty a couple times early in my career). Rarely was it intentional, but rather not fully understanding how the various edits work together.

A town so edited with just a couple Waze traces through it once in a while will get a few soft turns set by the system resulting in zig-zag routes as you described.

As to the so called lv5 ground scorch locks that's more often just from the days when the practice was to lock everything so the autoedit system wouldn't undo edits. That system is no longer active and those locks have been mostly removed. I've cleaned up large portions of UT, WY, NV, and western CO and the closest to vandalism (unless you are talking about me) ;-) was when Gspot went through Idaho in early 2012 blanket fixing directionality but doing nothing for turn restrictions or even verifying if the roads from the basemap import even existed. But that just meant plenty of edits left for me.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby TruckOttr » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:32 am

jasonh300 wrote:
sahls72 wrote:It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.


This sort of thing should be reported to your Regional Coordinator immediately with a permalink. Vandalism of the map is taken very seriously.


Check out western CO, and southern parts of WY. I think most of western CO may have been remedied (by doing a ground scorching level 5 lockdown of everything in some towns), but there were still a few "areas of question" last time I looked.

EDIT: Hmmm...After doing a recheck, it looks like you were involved in the ground scorch of Grand Junction, CO and surrounding environs so you have seen the persistent vandalism that occurs in less monitored areas.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby sahls72 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:25 am

I can probably find the town again but it's already fixed. It was a small town I drove through on my way out to Fort Riley. I didn't report it because the editing was done in early 2012, the editor was lvl 1, and there wasn't much for GPS tracks in the area. I figured if an editor that was editing in 2012 and was still lvl 1, probably wasn't around anymore.

I will do better about reporting oddities in the future.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby jasonh300 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:17 pm

sahls72 wrote:It would have saved me from an editor, with a sick sense of humor, that tried to route me through nothing but gas station parking lots and alleys. Of course I understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this while keeping vandalism under control.


This sort of thing should be reported to your Regional Coordinator immediately with a permalink. Vandalism of the map is taken very seriously.
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