Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby DragonOfThrones » Mon May 27, 2013 7:58 am

I got no problem that drivers and map editors ranking/points are separate. Leveling up, not majorly dependent on scores such as map editing that would give someone advantage being more introvert.

That's probably much easier to do since you just program a couple codes that subtract the map editor's score, than give special badges to map editors, which would be a lot more work.

If this can be done, it would be fantastic!
Last edited by DragonOfThrones on Mon May 27, 2013 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby DragonOfThrones » Mon May 27, 2013 8:10 am

Also, I certainly don't have a job that pays me to drive, and many don't either. I know there are such jobs, but at least if they get their points, they are on the road driving, not at home on computer which is the issue that bothers me the most.

Either way, I feel points should be distributed in this order (Highest to Lowest)

1) Those who actively report traffic, police, road problems that help others while driving
2) How many miles they drive
3) Map editors (But if you separate these points from driving, then I don't care the points are higher) otherwise it really should not even have that much points, that takes away from real traffic experience.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby iainhouse » Mon May 27, 2013 12:47 pm

When I started with Waze last year, I tried using it for commuting to work in London and for a holiday to Wales. It didn't work. It was only able to give me 1 useful route to/from work and was nearly useless in the rural areas of Wales. Had I been just a driver, I would have given up on Waze straight away and gone elsewhere.

I didn't. Instead I have dedicated thousands of hours to editing the maps and engaging with the Waze community (something which, incidentally, has supplied far more social interaction than I have ever had before - I am an introvert).

That work means that a large portion of London is now completely navigable with Waze. It means that 30 or more major urban areas and many small villages are now able to be properly navigated with Waze. It means (I hope) that hundreds of people who might formerly have tried & abandoned Waze have instead found that it is worth using.

I have 1 million points and 300K edits, I am in the top 10 all-time for my country and top 100 all-time for the ROTW - and I am extremely proud of that. Given that I get nothing else from Waze except those points and the support of the community, it's hard to explain why I bother to do this. I probably wouldn't do it if my effort to create the maps was buried by those using it.

I do not want to minimize the effort of those drivers who simply use Waze. Even making no reports, they still contribute the speed data that allows Waze to provide something the basic satnavs can't. However, that speed data is useless if an incorrect map means that Waze can't select available routes.

As for reporting, the problem has always been people gaming the system. If we make reporting more valuable, there are people who will simply report for points - making reports useless. It would, perhaps, make more sense to give points for reports based on thanks from other users, rather than on the report itself.

This has made me think about the whole issue and I feel there is one situation that is unfair to the drivers: User Requests. As a user, you can report an issue with the map - this places a user request on the map which an editor has to deal with. It's absolutely right that the editor should be rewarded for fixing the problem - after all, that work will provide benefit to every future user of the map. However we would not have known about that problem without your report. I would be happy to see quite a large points bonus go to the user who accurately reports a problem that can be identified and fixed. To avoid gaming the system, you would probably have to make it so that you can't give yourself a bonus based on your own reports.

I would also quite like to see a separate "top drivers" scoreboard, based on miles driven (which contributes to the Waze data), map problems reported (resulting in an improvement to the map) and thanked "live" reports.

Finally, I want to say this: the primary model of Waze is to provide routing based on current user driving experience. Without drivers using Waze, it would be useless. However, without the massive effort the editors put in (for free) we would have practically no drivers at all because the maps would be so poor nobody would keep using Waze.

[EDIT] Corrected a mistake - I didn't mean to say "hundreds thousands of hours" :lol: But it is thousands!
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby DragonOfThrones » Mon May 27, 2013 1:34 pm

EVERY single report I've made about cops, road hazard, closures to date has been 100%, truthful, honest. I DO NOT report just to get points, period. I report only to provide accurate help, of road problem that DOES exist 100%, then hopefully I am one of my city, state's TOP contributor! Lie to get points is not attractive to me whatsoever, it makes me feel like a big loser.

I don't know about others, but personally it ain't fair to be doubted on my LIGITMATE contribution.

I barely got thanked for, despite the contribution of these 100% ACCURATE reporting. Well, I DON'T know why or how that is, so the points based on how many thank you has major flaws. What if say, these people made friends with a lot of wazers, and the they are the ones who constantly got each other's back and thank each other? I don't yet have a lot of Wazer friends...

The issue of reporting just to get points probably do exist, I don't doubt that, but I don't do it. The people who do it are those with nothing else better do. I will personally look down on those who game points on Waze... seriously, get a life these people lol!



And, Who isn't to say there aren't map editors edit maps just to game points?

But, I am not sure how to really know though. Even if a user report a cop sighting that cop might not stay in that same spot all day, even if he was actually there. Just because when I drove by and didn't see any cops doesn't mean the previous user who made such report lied, you know.
Last edited by DragonOfThrones on Mon May 27, 2013 2:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby iainhouse » Mon May 27, 2013 1:50 pm

DragonDon wrote:EVERY single report I've made about cops, road hazard, closures to date has been 100%, Truthful, honest. I DO NOT report just to get points, period.

I don't know about others, but personally it ain't fair to be doubted on my LIGITMATE contribution.


I'm sure nobody here is doubting your contributions. The very fact you're willing to engage with the community marks you out as someone who genuinely cares about the way Waze works and wants to contribute - and I'm sure everybody reading this thread recognizes that. I'm just saying that, for every 99 people trying to help those around them (and valuing the points as a recognition of that effort), there is 1 person who only cares about the points and wants to see their name "up in lights".

The editing side is no different. For every 99 editors who dedicate hours to examining maps, cruising Street View, visiting locations to check and adding value to the maps, there is 1 editor who mass-edits areas for points without adding any value at all. The difference is that they can do far more damage - and that's why bad editors can and do have their privileges removed.

I'll be honest - you're theoretically preaching to an unsympathetic audience. :( The majority of drivers will never visit the forums, so we're mostly editors here - and, of course, we're going to think that map editing should get the most points. ;) I just hope we don't come across as hostile.

I really do think that map editing provides massive value to Waze. But I also agree with you that this minimizes the effort put in by drivers willing not just to use Waze, but to contribute through the application.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Daknife » Mon May 27, 2013 10:25 pm

petervdveen wrote:Well... I think with driving you do get more points then with editing.

I think if you drive a lot, you can get a million points in a year.

No editor has done that yet.
Also, if your country has no basemap it's even easier to get points.

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Me on 6/12 2012 (when I started keeping a daily tally for fun) 529692 points
Me on 5/26 2013 (last nights totals) 2399778 points
1.8 million points in less than a year, of that I've driven just over 15,000 miles. Do the math, 1 million points in a year from editing is most definitely possible, I just might make it to 2 mil within a year.

As to the OP, without all those points, most of five states would still be mostly un-useable in Waze. Oh the freeways were mostly okay (but not entirely), but the city streets were a mess even in big cities. When I first hit CM status to be able to edit outside my state, I followed a UR report down to Las Vegas, what I found there was thousands of unresolved UR's dating back to the import of the US base-map. I'm sure there were a few locals who occasionally tried to fix things but they were overhwhelmed and for the most part there was no real evidence of local editing. I spent days working over that city cleaning up directionality false roads and turn restrictions from the basemap import and what few GPS tracks I found away from the interstate freeway, a couple other visiting editors who'd traveled to Vegas just about then joined me in cleaning and editing, making the basic system worked. And before long local editors soon joined in. Now UR's rarely sit for more than a couple days before being resolved, there are multiple editors down there keeping the maps clean, up-to date and functional. I saw the same thing Happen in the Reno-Carson area, Near Idaho Falls, Couer d'lain (sorry about the spelling Haydenray) and other cities in the intermountain west. Once the big cities were cleaned up I moved on to all the small towns that to this day may have never had a wazer go through them, but again I cleaned them up so when someone does need to visit those towns they can. I've traced thousands of miles of state and US highways through winding canyons fixing them so they are complete with clean connections at all points and so that Waze can actually navigate along them, even through areas with no signal meaning no traffic data to autofix the routes.

I've dealt with a very creative state DOT that has in the last few years introduced Utah drivers to CFI's, DDI's, Thru-turns(it's ugly but it works, and it works well), and a few unique traffic design layouts and I've made those intersections work. You've driven to and from work every day for a year. Why should you get more points than me? I made the maps work in Utah Idaho, Nevada, and Wyoming and in parts of Colorado, Arizona, and Montana (as did all the other editors in their respective areas.) You simply drove to and from work as you would have done if Waze had never existed. You've contributed a traffic reports and traffic data, but all that would be meaningless if Waze insisted on plotting a 200 mile zigzag route to take you on your 100 mile drive.

As others have noted there have been those who gamed the editing system just for points, but they are quickly identified and dealt with. As with most of us I like the points system, I like tracking my progress, but I edit to make the maps work, not for points. But that said, why should your drives on roads that editors made work, and editors keep updated with current construction improvements be of greater value (in the worthless points value system) than the contributions of the editors who made your drives via Waze even possible. Waze's base-map imports while better (usually) than nothing, are far from usable. Waze editors do deserve more points because they make your driving experience with Waze possible. Without user editors Waze would be years behind the curve, and a stand alone Tom Tom or Garmin with no real-time traffic capability and dynamic rerouting capability would still be the standard for in vehicle navigation. And every editor I've communicated with here also drives and makes reports, but also, based on their experience with the editing they are constantly looking for things that need to be fixed or improved, while most drivers may grumble about a road layout that looks weird or a troublesome turn restriction or may actually hit the report button when they have difficulties with navigation. But most drivers do nothing more than that. Editors not only spend hours and days editing but they also drive to and from work making the same traffic contributions as you do (probably better ones because we tend to have a better idea of what each type of possible report means and how it will be fixed) but we also are identifying areas that need to be improved, we are asking, begging, pleading, and crying for Waze to implement changes to the systems to resolve these issues, and we are the ones who reluctantly work out kludgy work-arounds (see my link to the Thru-turn for kludgy) to make the roads nice and navigable for you the driver to drive on.

And last of all, if you wish to start an honest discussion, YELLING is not the way to do so. Statements in all caps with bold and underlining is simply trying to scream your tantrum even louder.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby razor2k » Mon May 27, 2013 10:50 pm

DragonDon wrote:
Most points should ALWAYS BELONG ON THE ROAD, AMONG REAL TRAFFIC, not ever on the computer in a basement, ALONE!


We don't have basements here in FL! ;)
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby petervdveen » Mon May 27, 2013 10:57 pm

When I calculate back what I did I get this list:

Editing: 443943 points

Driving: 362960 points

Forum: 3196 points

And I must say, I really don't drive a lot! (at least, waze is not recording a lot :P )
So I realy think it should be possible to catch a high level editor by just driving.
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby razor2k » Tue May 28, 2013 12:17 am

petervdveen wrote:Well... I think with driving you do get more points then with editing.

I think if you drive a lot, you can get a million points in a year.

No editor has done that yet.

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You do. You get 5 pts/mile vs. 1.5 pts/edit.

However, getting a million points in a year driving you would have to drive 548 miles/day 365 days/Yr.

Seems almost impossible to me :)
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Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby razor2k » Tue May 28, 2013 1:23 am

daknife wrote:As others have noted there have been those who gamed the editing system just for points, but they are quickly identified and dealt with. As with most of us I like the points system, I like tracking my progress, but I edit to make the maps work, not for points. But that said, why should your drives on roads that editors made work, and editors keep updated with current construction improvements be of greater value (in the worthless points value system) than the contributions of the editors who made your drives via Waze even possible. Waze's base-map imports while better (usually) than nothing, are far from usable. Waze editors do deserve more points because they make your driving experience with Waze possible. Without user editors Waze would be years behind the curve, and a stand alone Tom Tom or Garmin with no real-time traffic capability and dynamic rerouting capability would still be the standard for in vehicle navigation. And every editor I've communicated with here also drives and makes reports, but also, based on their experience with the editing they are constantly looking for things that need to be fixed or improved, while most drivers may grumble about a road layout that looks weird or a troublesome turn restriction or may actually hit the report button when they have difficulties with navigation. But most drivers do nothing more than that. Editors not only spend hours and days editing but they also drive to and from work making the same traffic contributions as you do (probably better ones because we tend to have a better idea of what each type of possible report means and how it will be fixed) but we also are identifying areas that need to be improved, we are asking, begging, pleading, and crying for Waze to implement changes to the systems to resolve these issues, and we are the ones who reluctantly work out kludgy work-arounds (see my link to the Thru-turn for kludgy) to make the roads nice and navigable for you the driver to drive on.

And last of all, if you wish to start an honest discussion, YELLING is not the way to do so. Statements in all caps with bold and underlining is simply trying to scream your tantrum even louder.


IMHO, that is a problem for everyone else who is not a CM ( not singling you out :)) . CM's have access to "Allowing all edit scripts" So you can rack up the points (and edits) a lot quicker than all lower level editiors. The gap will just continue to widen.

As has been said before, I don't think this is fair but it is what it is. I've pretty much given up on reaching 200k..and now that the ranking system has made it even harder to advance in editing level with even higher edit counts...I'll just stay satisfied with what I'm doing (Knowing I'm doing my best and hopefully not screwing up the map) :cry:

At some point, editors below lvl 6 will get fed up and leave but if waze gets gobbled up by FB, the point is moot anyway.
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