Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Moderator: Unholy

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby iainhouse » Mon May 27, 2013 1:50 pm

DragonDon wrote:EVERY single report I've made about cops, road hazard, closures to date has been 100%, Truthful, honest. I DO NOT report just to get points, period.

I don't know about others, but personally it ain't fair to be doubted on my LIGITMATE contribution.


I'm sure nobody here is doubting your contributions. The very fact you're willing to engage with the community marks you out as someone who genuinely cares about the way Waze works and wants to contribute - and I'm sure everybody reading this thread recognizes that. I'm just saying that, for every 99 people trying to help those around them (and valuing the points as a recognition of that effort), there is 1 person who only cares about the points and wants to see their name "up in lights".

The editing side is no different. For every 99 editors who dedicate hours to examining maps, cruising Street View, visiting locations to check and adding value to the maps, there is 1 editor who mass-edits areas for points without adding any value at all. The difference is that they can do far more damage - and that's why bad editors can and do have their privileges removed.

I'll be honest - you're theoretically preaching to an unsympathetic audience. :( The majority of drivers will never visit the forums, so we're mostly editors here - and, of course, we're going to think that map editing should get the most points. ;) I just hope we don't come across as hostile.

I really do think that map editing provides massive value to Waze. But I also agree with you that this minimizes the effort put in by drivers willing not just to use Waze, but to contribute through the application.
ImageImageImage
UK AdminsUK WikiWaze FAQWMEFU Script :ugeek:
I want to go to a commune in Vermont and deal with no unit of time shorter than a season
iainhouse
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 9037
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:16 pm
Location: on the road from London to insanity, with Waze HQ in the driving seat
Has thanked: 1967 times
Been thanked: 6791 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby iainhouse » Mon May 27, 2013 12:47 pm

When I started with Waze last year, I tried using it for commuting to work in London and for a holiday to Wales. It didn't work. It was only able to give me 1 useful route to/from work and was nearly useless in the rural areas of Wales. Had I been just a driver, I would have given up on Waze straight away and gone elsewhere.

I didn't. Instead I have dedicated thousands of hours to editing the maps and engaging with the Waze community (something which, incidentally, has supplied far more social interaction than I have ever had before - I am an introvert).

That work means that a large portion of London is now completely navigable with Waze. It means that 30 or more major urban areas and many small villages are now able to be properly navigated with Waze. It means (I hope) that hundreds of people who might formerly have tried & abandoned Waze have instead found that it is worth using.

I have 1 million points and 300K edits, I am in the top 10 all-time for my country and top 100 all-time for the ROTW - and I am extremely proud of that. Given that I get nothing else from Waze except those points and the support of the community, it's hard to explain why I bother to do this. I probably wouldn't do it if my effort to create the maps was buried by those using it.

I do not want to minimize the effort of those drivers who simply use Waze. Even making no reports, they still contribute the speed data that allows Waze to provide something the basic satnavs can't. However, that speed data is useless if an incorrect map means that Waze can't select available routes.

As for reporting, the problem has always been people gaming the system. If we make reporting more valuable, there are people who will simply report for points - making reports useless. It would, perhaps, make more sense to give points for reports based on thanks from other users, rather than on the report itself.

This has made me think about the whole issue and I feel there is one situation that is unfair to the drivers: User Requests. As a user, you can report an issue with the map - this places a user request on the map which an editor has to deal with. It's absolutely right that the editor should be rewarded for fixing the problem - after all, that work will provide benefit to every future user of the map. However we would not have known about that problem without your report. I would be happy to see quite a large points bonus go to the user who accurately reports a problem that can be identified and fixed. To avoid gaming the system, you would probably have to make it so that you can't give yourself a bonus based on your own reports.

I would also quite like to see a separate "top drivers" scoreboard, based on miles driven (which contributes to the Waze data), map problems reported (resulting in an improvement to the map) and thanked "live" reports.

Finally, I want to say this: the primary model of Waze is to provide routing based on current user driving experience. Without drivers using Waze, it would be useless. However, without the massive effort the editors put in (for free) we would have practically no drivers at all because the maps would be so poor nobody would keep using Waze.

[EDIT] Corrected a mistake - I didn't mean to say "hundreds thousands of hours" :lol: But it is thousands!
ImageImageImage
UK AdminsUK WikiWaze FAQWMEFU Script :ugeek:
I want to go to a commune in Vermont and deal with no unit of time shorter than a season
iainhouse
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 9037
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:16 pm
Location: on the road from London to insanity, with Waze HQ in the driving seat
Has thanked: 1967 times
Been thanked: 6791 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby harling » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:58 am

razor2k wrote:
harling wrote:I think it would be very revealing to turn the statement around and ask the plaintiff, "Who do you think should get the most points?" I wonder how often the answer will boil down to the guy in the mirror.

Maybe not as often as you would think...not everyone has an agenda;)

My guess would have been 9 out of 10 complainants. And I don't mean their response would be a blantant "I should get the most points", but whoever they describe as the most deserving, I'd bet at least 90% would fall into that category themselves.
Image
Area Manager, Eastern MA & Southern NH. Country Manager, USA.
harling
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: Eastern MA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby harling » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:20 am

I think it would be very revealing to turn the statement around and ask the plaintiff, "Who do you think should get the most points?" I wonder how often the answer will boil down to the guy in the mirror.
Image
Area Manager, Eastern MA & Southern NH. Country Manager, USA.
harling
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: Eastern MA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby harling » Thu May 30, 2013 11:46 am

razor2k wrote:From what I see, only CM's say "I don't get what the big deal is about points". When someone can be a member (and I use that term loosely) of the 700k club in 10 months (not you), obviously extra scrutiny is not part of that equation...

Oh yes, if you are a relatively unknown editor cranking out 100K points per week, you absolutely do get extra scrutiny. On more than one occasion, editors have been demoted or even banned from editing because we found that they were making thousands upon thousands of useless (or damaging) edits to drive up their scores. In other cases, their work has turned out to be genuine, and they evidently have a lot of time to devote to the task.
Image
Area Manager, Eastern MA & Southern NH. Country Manager, USA.
harling
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: Eastern MA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby harling » Tue May 28, 2013 1:17 pm

Frankly, I don't get what the big deal is about points.

What do points do for drivers: Bragging rights about who has driven the most miles with Waze? Hazard reports and "not there" feedback given more credence than those of a brand-new Wazer?

For editors, it is related to the size of the area in which they are allowed to do (unpaid) work for Waze. As for credibility among other editors (e.g., on the forums): one's points score is a less reliable indicator than it used to be. These days an editor's reputation is established in the forum, not on the scoreboard.

As for experienced editors "racking up points": many of us earned our stripes on the previous editor, which allowed only one edit per save. These days, racking up points very quickly gets you extra scrutiny by CMs, to make sure you aren't making useless edits for points.
Image
Area Manager, Eastern MA & Southern NH. Country Manager, USA.
harling
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: Eastern MA
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby fvwazing » Mon May 27, 2013 7:13 am

Given that there are 99 drivers to 1 editor, given that all editors work in their spare time and half the drivers are paid (by their boss) to drive 8h per day anyway, there can be no doubt who contributes most to the Waze ecosystem.

Oh, and the internets provide ample opportunity for EXTRAVERTS to compete for attention. Leave Waze-editing to the rest, please. Still, I wished that drivers could get their own scoreboard so that they can compare their measly gains among themselves.

Sheesh.
Waze jezelf!
600K+ edits
AM for some 25.000 km² around Maastricht, the Netherlands
iPhone 3Gs / iOS 6.0.1
fvwazing
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 412 times
Been thanked: 379 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby foxitrot » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:45 pm

My off-topic thought:
Ericular wrote:... how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports?

Since my beginning with Waze, my opinion was always that Waze will never be able to make a real breakthrough, until the client will be able to calculate a decent route in offline mode, off course including the knowledge of such trivialities like house numbers and POIs. While being a useful and appealing navi, it could convince high percentage of its users or testers to make use of its wonderful online features. Otherwise, it will possibly never spread itself out of the most populated metropolitan areas.
...with the good old crashing :roll: Symbian 2.1.99.114 (on N-E52), while
trying to get used to the good new asocial Android 4.xx.0.yyy (on OP-X March-me-Low).
foxitrot
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 7227
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:22 pm
Location: Slovakia
Has thanked: 2609 times
Been thanked: 1158 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby floppyrod84 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:04 pm

dmcconachie wrote:
maantje76 wrote:
dmcconachie wrote:I'm definitely a Champ that bucks the trend, I think editors are over-rewarded in terms of points.

Since wme, yes!

Oh definitely. 7500pt candies wouldn't have been enough to compensate for time in cartouche! Remember when 50 hour weeks on Waze only just got you through 10k points? :-\

All too well. Mainly the reason why I'm so far behind. That and I have a life ;-)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2
floppyrod84
 
Posts: 2569
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:17 pm
Location: Sheerness, Kent, UK
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Map editing should NOT get you the most points!

Postby Ericular » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Can't we all just be on the same team, working towards the same end result of producing the best navigation app out there?

I imagine a world where every driver used Waze. The ultimate realization of "perfected" navigation. Every road has accurate, live speed data, routing is efficient, destination arrival times are dead-on. So then I think - how can we get there? How can Waze improve to appeal to more drivers? Are we lacking more in road & turn accuracy, or lack of real-time data and road reports? In my very limited frame of reference, I think new users in my area will experience (and be turned off by) map issues more often than lack of live data and incident reports. Perhaps this is why the points scales are tilted a bit towards editors vs. drivers.

That said, we all need each other, right? Drivers would be lost (literally) without the millions of edits made by dedicated editors over the years. Editors benefit from user reports, automatically identified map errors, GPS tracks, road paving, etc. Drivers also provide incentive. I edit roads I've never driven and never will, in the hopes that I can help someone else have a good experience. If I was the only driver using the data, I wouldn't bother with those roads.

Can't we all just get along? :mrgreen:
Refining Minnesota's 86,939 square miles, one at a time!
Image
Google Nexus 4 | Android 4.2.2
Ericular
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 8:58 pm
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 7 times

PreviousNext

Return to Ranks and Points

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jm6087