Ramp naming proposal

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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Chriseleven » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:52 am

"To" is superfluous. I would exclude.

:) :D :D Ok. You have my comment. :twisted:
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Discus » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:45 pm

Nice!

To ease reading, I'd edit the section after There are basically three types of ramp segment: to have either
1.
2.
3.
or bullet points rather than as a paragraph.

I'd proof more of it, but apparently the substation outside our house has just blown up, so I best go and rescue things.

Incidentally, someone seems to have edited one of these roads I recall previously being Ramps to being a Major Highway, yet in my mind (and being somewhat familiar with the junction), it's a ramp, even if that ramp is on the ground rather than flyover concrete style (the roads are at different levels).
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Discus » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Thanks, I'll fix it up :)
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Discus » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:43 pm

Kuhlkatz wrote:I'd also set the restrictions for off-ramp to onramp transition, not to allow through-routing. This is usually illegal and Waze should never be allowed to use this as a 'legal' routing option if there is traffic built up on the Highway / Freeway itself.

Just so I'm clear this means I should block the option of going straight across from the offramp back down the onramp?

I have myself done this many times when navigating unfamiliar cities and taking the wrong turn (signage is sometimes misleading) - if you're doing it like a Taxi to cheat traffic, it's one thing, but if you're doing it because you honestly meant not to get off the highway just yet and need to get back on again pronto, it's another - indeed, here there are no islands or similar to preclude such behaviour. (And in this particular instance, there's never enough traffic there to justify getting off and on again there).
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Discus » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:11 pm

mithrandi wrote:Yes, block that.

Noted, and done - thanks! :)
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Kuhlkatz » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:58 am

I agree with the general exit naming conventions as far as ramps are concerned. They should convey the same information as the signage in TTS. Most people will tend to look out for exit numbers, route numbers and specific street names as mentioned by voice guidance, so if it does not conform, drivers may overshoot an exit or entrance, and then end up doing something stupid to compensate for that.
Our 'job' is just to make it as safe and easy as possible to get from point A to point B.

I do not like the "to aaa" naming for onramps, as TTS tends to pronounce it "onto to aaa". Leaving it blank is a better option, or naming it specifically eg. "N1 : Bloemfontein" when turning onto the "N1 South" or on the "N1 North" depending on where you are.

We are also not planning on reinventing the wheel - current references in the Wiki does reflect the same standards, based on area-specific signage. If it works elsewhere, there is no reason why we could or should not adopt the same convention.

To make things 100% clear, the idea behind tabling specific items and putting it up for voting is not to be hard-assed about it. It's simply to ensure that we all agree on a standard, and to peg it down.
Once this is put up, we can safely say that with all things considered, it was the accepted method by the majority, i.e. it would/should/could or does currently work and it does not need to change what was tabled.

Just some food for thought and things to consider with naming:

In general, an exit sign contains a minimum of 3 pieces of information, but can be any of :
1. An exit number
2. The general location of the exit.
3. Route number(s) for the further routing destinations.
4. The immediate destination i.e. street name if applicable.
5. The routing destination(s) for the exit - Town(s) / Cities

What is deemed as important in this case, and to whom ? Someone exiting the N1 to Kroonstad is not interested in the route numbers, but someone passing through might be.
Person 1 likely wants the street name, where person 2 would not give a hoot.
Is it acceptable to split the ramps in this case for wayfinders just to split the info, especially on short ramps like the N1 ? Or do you want to 'blast them' with all the info.
Just use Exit No & general area, and use unnamed for rest of the destinations?
Use Exit & area and split further for simple route number ?

We also need to consider TTS.

I have been listening to some of the cached TTS files on my device, and noticed that the conventions for "name1/name2" have no pauses in between, so ends up sounding like gobbledygook. Also, in the convention of "name (Rnnn)" vs "name Rnnn", the "name (Rnnn)" has a slighly longer pause. It's also clear on directions with "route name direction" vs "route name (direction).

Below is some of the tts samples I've uploaded to Dropbox. We are still getting the 'North x' for 'Nx' routes. Hopefully we can get this sorted for ZA.
Serena - onto Marlboro M1 South On Ramp - compressed at the end
Serena - onto N1 South/N3 South - the / does not force any pausing
Serena - onto N3 (S) - slight pause for south
Serena - onto N3 South - no pause, still discernable

The TTS files can be played using the free opensource VLC media player from http://www.videolan.org/.

If you do not trust my links, you can still use the player & listen to files on your own device.
Using 'Airdroid', you can access files off your Android via a browser interface.

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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Kuhlkatz » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:38 am

mithrandi wrote:I'm not sure about the "to" prefix, I mostly copied that from the other countries.

The Wiki page on the Ramps does indicate that it's supposed to drop the 'to' and I have no evidence that it's not being dropped. I just prefer I have TTS on, but mostly have the radio blaring when commuting, so hardly listen to it locally. When I want to explicitly hear police warnings or TTS, I'll plug in an earphone on one side as that does not drown out the radio ;)

mithrandi wrote: ..."N1 Pretoria" for north, and "N1 Bloemfontein" for south, rather than giving the direction explicitly. I think this should be included in the ramp name, regardless of whether we just have "N1 Pretoria" or "to N1 Pretoria" or something else.

I would agree on adding the direction of the Freeway / Highway you are joining as part of the ramp name. So it would be either 'N1 North Pretoria' or even 'N1 North to Pretoria' which would likely sound better in TTS. If left blank TTS will pronounce the following named segment which would be 'N1 (N)'. This SHOULD be pronounced 'en one north' but currently is 'north one north'.
I found a ramps close by that's labeled (link further down below) with "NAME / NAME" and navigated across there last night to hear how it's pronounced. It's not doing the expected pause vs. "NAME/NAME" without any spacing.
It sound like TTS ignores spacing of any form indiscriminately at this point. Serena is definitely seriously getting confused with Streets and Saints at the moment, so I'm not sure if this is also just a temporary glitch.
We really need a testbed where you can just plug in this stuff and listen to what sounds best, instead of having to semi-breaking something in an update just to listen to it.
Above also relates to :
mithrandi wrote:Do you know if it makes a difference if there are spaces around the slash?
.
I'm at work at the moment where external mails sites & cloud storage is blocked, but will try and get the TTS file onto dropbox & link it in later.

Kuhlkatz wrote:Is it acceptable to split the ramps in this case for wayfinders just to split the info, especially on short ramps like the N1 ? Or do you want to 'blast them' with all the info.

I did not add it here, but adding too much will mean that current TTS annunciation will be either cut off for the next instruction, or Serena will yak on like the wife on a long distance call and cause the next TTS instruction to be skipped altogether. We need to keep it as short as possible.
I think we can skip the Streets it leads to in the immediate ramp, and just have the "Exit nnn : Area (Route no.)", "Exit nnn : Route No." or even "Exit nnn : Route No. Area". Streets names in major metros like Jhb or Pretoria would be announced as the next segment for the turn. Not sure what other preferences are here, but I think most people would actually prefer to hear that the are turning of onto 'Grayston Dr' or 'Rivonia Rd' instead of 'Sandton' being the general area.
mithrandi wrote:Do you know if it makes a difference if there are spaces around the slash?
On Freeway / Highway sections that split into other Freeways / Highways I don't think it's of any real benefit to add ultimate destinations, but it might be useful for users not familiar with the area, just to confirm that they are still on right track, e.g. the exit I traveled named Exit 124A : N1 Midrand / Johannesburg.

mithrandi wrote:...I don't think there's any need to get fancy with wayfinders / splitting the ramp....
For longer / more complex ramps, especially with multiple splits, it probably does make sense to introduce wayfinder names further along; ultimately, this is going to come down to individual judgement calls.

Agreed. No need to get too fancy in most cases. We still need to keep it simple and predictable.
99% of all ramps / exits can be named without fuss.
Judgement would usually include an indication on an explicit 'Exit Left' and/or 'Exit Right' and the destinations for the the wayfinders as per the US Wiki samples.

mithrandi wrote:I don't really have any justification for this other than personal preference, but I prefer the pause-less version when the route designation comes first (ie. "R511 William Nicol Dr"), and the pausing version when it comes last (ie. "William Nicol Dr (R511)").

Same preferences here, "Rivonia Rd (M9)" or "M9 Rivonia Road". I'll hunt for confirmation if a decision was ever made on "Route# Streetname" vs. "Streetname (Route#)". I know there were some discussions around this.

mithrandi wrote:Apparently setting the road name to "N"1 would solve this, but hopefully nobody actually thinks that is a good idea.

It would actually have to be lowercase, like "n"1, but that would look horrible in the client and not match any signage. I'll look for the mail from support, but it might be possible to have country-specific tweaks for TTS.

mithrandi wrote:As far as this goes, if we want to remove the use of () we could still name it like "N3 S" instead of having to spell out "N3 South". I prefer the version with the pause slightly, but I'd be happy with either; what I'd like to avoid is spelling out words like "North" and "South" in full without abbreviating, since this is incredibly unwieldy when shown on the map / in the client.

I prefer the "N# (direction_abbreviation)" with the slight pause. It would also assist if entry ramps are not named to have consistent pronunciation and takes up very little space on the screen.
It would also work for all cardinal directions and the combos (NE), (NW) etc. if that's ever used, and still take up very little space. Most direction indicators would however be just N,S,E or W.
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Kuhlkatz » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:34 pm

This section should likely be set to ramp as well.
I'd also set the restrictions for off-ramp to onramp transition, not to allow through-routing. This is usually illegal and Waze should never be allowed to use this as a 'legal' routing option if there is traffic built up on the Highway / Freeway itself.
Even if there are no explicit turns, coming from an onramp the visual cues for the island markings indicates that a turn is expected, extending halfway across the on-ramp entrance on the other side of the R67.

I'd also suggest that you use Timbones' Highlight Script and get rid of the soft turns allowed here - Q / W all the junctions and then explicitly restrict what should not be allowed.

Preferably lock Major Highway & ramps after you adjust them & are sure that it's looking right. Allowed turns and restrictions have a magical way of 'changing themselves' when people fiddle around.

Remember to check it again a day or so after editing. I've noticed some weird instances where restrictions I fixed the day before are suddenly screwed again the next day, even when locked.
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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Kuhlkatz » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:14 pm

Discus wrote:if you're doing it like a Taxi to cheat traffic


I've seen some class acts that would make our mini-bus drivers look like amateurs ;)

As Tristan said, in some cases it's allowed, but Waze should never route you that way.
There was a particular thread somewhere where this occurred frequently in the US, but it seems sorted now. On this one the ramp to ramp transition was actually legal.

One of the main reasons was that the Freeway itself curved. The ramps on the inner or shorter side of the curve, actually worked out marginally shorter than the Freeway itself, similar to this one at Harrismith, so Waze wanted to route across the ramps due to the shorter wait times and shorter distance.
They should typically be set to not allow it like on this side.
If a System generated Problem Report pops up for these when a driver does cut across, you can usually mark them as 'fixed'. It should hopefully not appear too often.

Cheers

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Re: Ramp naming proposal

Postby Kuhlkatz » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:20 pm

I wanted to PM you, but could not send the pic that way as we cannot upload seperate images like other boards allow.

This is why I am not a fan of the 'to Nnnn' ramp or AT-Grade naming convention. Even if TTS might drop it, the client still shows it. It looks amateurish this way :
Screenshot_2012-11-29-18-13-52.png
Screenshot_2012-11-29-18-13-52.png (153.09 KiB) Viewed 287 times


If it was named 'M39 to Tembisa' or nothing in this case, it would have looked better in my opinion, and it would have sounded exactly the same.
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