Toolbox Permissions USA

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Toolbox Permissions USA

Postby PesachZ » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:51 am

This thread should be used to discuss which Toolbox tools should, or should not be available to editors in the USA.

Once a decision on a tool permission change is reached in this thread, the US TbCC will notify the TB developers to make that change. Changes only take effect on the following WMETB version release.

The designated US TbCC is currently OrbitC, and Sketch.


To facilitate efficient discussion, please include a convincing argument why a change should be implemented with any request for a change.

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Last edited by PesachZ on Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby steveinark » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:46 pm

Line #41: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments.
- Support Default setting (L5, L6, AM&L3+,CM).

Line #42: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on entire screen.
- Support using the Default (L5, L6, CM) as a minimum. If not higher restriction.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby PesachZ » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:18 pm

SteveInArk wrote:Line #41: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments.
- Support Default setting (L5, L6, AM&L3+,CM).

Line #42: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on entire screen.
- Support using the Default (L5, L6, CM) as a minimum. If not higher restriction.

To facilitate constructive discussion please provide a sound argument for why you think any change should be implemented.

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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby taco909 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:43 pm

SteveInArk wrote:Line #41: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments.
- Support Default setting (L5, L6, AM&L3+,CM).

Line #42: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on entire screen.
- Support using the Default (L5, L6, CM) as a minimum. If not higher restriction.

I would support these.

While I fully understand that many tools are restricted to reduce the temptation to perform mass-edits, I also fail to see the map damage risk in "Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments"
With the current programming logic, no harm comes from this operation (doglegs are not touched), and combined with other TB restrictions (see below) it prevents mass-editing.

My personal feeling is that anyone who can be trusted with "Clear segment geometry" can also be trusted with "Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments", but I don't have a problem with it being restricted to L3+AM and above, as this is not a tool that has been historically available to those below that level.

Primary reason, it makes life easier when segments need to be simplified for any number of reasons:
1 - Newbie creates a BBQ grille in a parking lot. Delete unwanted segments, delete unneeded junction nodes, select impacted segments and simplify.
This process takes something that might take 30 minutes and pares it down to 5-10 depending on the number of impacted segments.
2 - User paves a road. Paved area is extensive, over a road(s) that is/are not straight (rendering "clear geometry" not useful), and could perhaps contain 60 geometry nodes and 40 junction nodes, when only 5 junction nodes are valid.

While this will still require much manual cleanup, the ability for TB to clean up perhaps 50 of the invalid nodes is a big time-saver.


Other items:

Line #16: Highlight Simplifiable Segments - Match restrictions to Line #42.
IF we trust that excess geometry nodes to not appreciably increase server loading, then the only reason to delete them is to make adjustments to the actual geometry of the various segments and to eliminate over-complex segments (perhaps from basemap import).
These are issues that may be observed and corrected as the segments are worked.
There is no need for a highlight to call attention to these segments unless there is some other reason to edit them.

Line #39: Select in Area Place - Restrict to L3 and above
Purpose, reduce potential for mass-edits IE: blanket change of editor lock level or segment type.
L3 is the lowest level where the RC has a firm level of quality control. Many L2 editors get there while still drawing red roads and BBQ parking lots. Any kind of tool that makes it easier than using "M" to select multiple segments creates the potential for abuse by inexperienced or careless editors looking to "farm" points.
I would be okay with leaving this open to non-AM L3/4 because it is another tool that aids in the cleanup of a network of red roads that may share a common city and segment type.

Line #44: Auto Add Node to Loops - Make available to all levels
Question: Is there a situation where this could be harmful or abused?
Qualification: Suggestion is assuming that this tool requires the loop to be selected.
I would not be in favor of this being available to L1/2/3 if it does not require selection

Line #46: Select non-freeway/ramp segments with toll attribute - I'm flip-flopping on this one. While it can be a valuable tool to any level editor, I certainly see the potential for mass-editing without examining each selected segment.
I would be in favor of opening this up to L3+ IF it is restricted to zoom levels tight enough to render PVT/PLR segments.



One thing we need to keep in mind is that Java is not a secret language.
If an option is available within TB, it will be used as-is, and the TB Devs have some level of control over the function (like simple segments not corrupting doglegs).

As features that "used to be available" are removed, it provides an incentive for those who are able to program to write their own scripts and bookmarklets that replace the removed functions. If they do not advertise the script, then we potentially end up with L1 editors running around with tools that could cause serious damage, and senior editors having no clue about the script other than a suspicion because recently edited segments form a rectangle.
Let's not forget that TB is a collaboration of dedicated authors who incorporated their scripts into one package... but just as JNF still exists outside of TB, it would not be a complex matter for a programmer to duplicate other features without level restrictions.

My own feeling is that features should be restricted firstly based on their potential to cause damage in the hands of an inexperienced or careless editor, and secondly by the potential for use for "edit farming"
If a tool does not carry a high risk of causing damage, and is not inherently a "multiple segment" tool, I don't see the harm in it being available to most editors.

The little trash can at the top right of WME poses more potential for damage than any of the TB tools that were available in the 1.5.9 configuration.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby steveinark » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:54 pm

PesachZ wrote:
SteveInArk wrote:Line #41: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on selected segments.
- Support Default setting (L5, L6, AM&L3+,CM).

Line #42: Autofix - Suppress unneeded geometry on entire screen.
- Support using the Default (L5, L6, CM) as a minimum. If not higher restriction.

To facilitate constructive discussion please provide a sound argument for why you think any change should be implemented.

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This functionality is mature enough to validate its ability to save significant editing time. It is one of the few editing tools that is very unlikely to allow map damage from use (due to how it is implemented by the programers). The very fact that its default setting restricts use to experienced editors, serves to further reinforce the fact that use is not likely to cause map damage. In fact, the basic functionality of WME itself, available to all editors, is much more prone to allowing map damage.

Functions that are needed the most are found in WME. Toolbox brings to the table those editing tools that are not needed as often. Like the other tools in the Toolbox arsenal, when they are needed to save time, they are there to use. "Cutting a segment", "Clearing all geometry, "Add a node to loops" ... they can all be done manually. But toolbox allows the fix with one-click, and move on to the next map change.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby Thortok2000 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:58 am

The simplify segment tool could easily be a one-segment-only thing and I'd be okay with it. Due to the lack of need for it ever to be used, it's just one of those tools that comes in handy when you're messing with a particular segment. Much like 'clear all geometry', except smart enough to save you a few nodes instead of killing them all, therefore resulting in a slight amount of time saved over the 'clear all geometry' tool.

I'm fine adding the additional restriction of one-segment-only instead of selected segments allowing you to do multiple at once. The multiple selection thing is too easily gotten around as far as an actual limitation.

I also think the screenwide tool is useless. It doesn't do anything for the map, or the editor. It just raises edit count and hardens soft turns. It should never be used. Frankly I think toolbox should remove it, period.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby bart99gt » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Thortok2000 wrote:The simplify segment tool could easily be a one-segment-only thing and I'd be okay with it. Due to the lack of need for it ever to be used, it's just one of those tools that comes in handy when you're messing with a particular segment. Much like 'clear all geometry', except smart enough to save you a few nodes instead of killing them all, therefore resulting in a slight amount of time saved over the 'clear all geometry' tool.

I'm fine adding the additional restriction of one-segment-only instead of selected segments allowing you to do multiple at once. The multiple selection thing is too easily gotten around as far as an actual limitation.



I agree with doing away with the screen wide tool, but retain the ability to apply the tool to multiple selected segments. When dealing with multiple short segments, (say, like in a town whose streets are on a grid layout) having to select one segment at a time would be very tedious and offer no advantage to not having the tool in the first place.
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby Thortok2000 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:43 pm

I'm not sure if single/multiple is even configurable in the first place, but if it is, I'd rather multiple be restricted to the higher levels like CM or 5.

Selecting every segment on the screen is pretty easy to do, so edit farming is still possible quite easily. And I wouldn't even care if it didn't do more damage than good (hardening soft turns that haven't been examined closely, basically.)
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby taco909 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:47 pm

Thortok2000 wrote:I'm not sure if single/multiple is even configurable in the first place, but if it is, I'd rather multiple be restricted to the higher levels like CM or 5.

Selecting every segment on the screen is pretty easy to do, so edit farming is still possible quite easily. And I wouldn't even care if it didn't do more damage than good (hardening soft turns that haven't been examined closely, basically.)

That's why I suggested restricting select-in-area to zoom levels where PLR/PVT segments are visible, if not one level tighter.

Any editor CAN make edits to a segment that inadvertently hardens the turns without looking at them, but at least forcing them to zoom to a level where they *can* see it will be helpful.
Perhaps even add a warning before the script actually executes the instruction "Warning: Segment 98657412 has two soft turns, are you sure you wish to proceed?"
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Re: [Script] WME Toolbox {PERMISSIONS} USA

Postby Thortok2000 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:03 pm

I love the warning idea, even the best of editors might overlook something and a prompt would be quite handy.

However, select in area isn't the only way to mass select segments quickly. =P
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