Default turns when adding new roads

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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby AndyPoms » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:08 am

When a road is created, the turns are "soft" denied, meaning Waze will route through them even if they are denied. This is because you can't prove a negative - if enough people drive through a soft-denied turn, it will turn soft allowed - the app can't tell if people aren't taking a turn, only that they are going that way. When you QW a junction or manually set turn restrictions, you set the to be "hard" restrictions - which carry much more weight in the routing engine. When creating new roads, it is best to QW all junctions (hard-allow all turns) then disallow turns which aren't legal (hard-disallow).
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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby CBenson » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:13 pm

I am guessing that you are familiar with shift-z as well. But if not, note that it can be helpful at times.
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Re: Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby CBenson » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:46 pm

Kuhlkatz wrote:
txemt wrote:You'd be surprised how quickly you could clean that up with QW.

+1

The alternative to that sea of red is a sea of orange.....
Just imagining each of those as a UR or a MP should be enough encouragement to spend 5 minutes tops doing a Q/W on each node and giving the area a quick once over to see if road markings includes one way arrows somewhere....

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-1
I've got to disagree here. A quick once over to see if road markings includes one way arrows somewhere before mass QWing is much more likely to produce URs and MPs than the existing soft turn restrictions. Unless of course you get lucky and there are in fact no one-ways or other turn restrictions there.
If these soft restrictions would cause a sea of orange, then that would have attracted editors to correct them, which just hasn't happened. (Yes, there are active editors that monitor this area.)
I'm not saying they shouldn't be made correct hard restrictions. I'm just saying that they should be done correctly.
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Re: Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby CBenson » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:42 pm

Kuhlkatz wrote:Someone familiar with the area should be able to correct that fairly quickly.

Yes, that is correct. But as Kodi75 stated its a matter of priority.
Kuhlkatz wrote:In most populated neighborhoods, one-ways and fancy turn restrictions will not exist apart from the main arteries through them.

Well, "will not exist" is a fairly strong statement. I've got plenty of residential areas where there are a few one ways or other odd restrictions that are not on the main arteries.
Kuhlkatz wrote:If it's near a CBD or an industrial area, it may be a different story.

Well that example is within the 24th largest city in the United States, but its not downtown or overly industrial.
Kuhlkatz wrote:I understand that the auto-directionality and soft turn restriction overrides should not be happening any more in the back end, even though there has been isolated recent reports where this still seemed the case.

Did I miss something? I thought that waze did still automatically override soft restrictions (including directionality such as unknown).

Kuhlkatz wrote:It still does not make sense why soft turns are still allowed by default when a junction is created, yet the default for the 'hard' restrictions still deny everything.

I'm missing something again. What's a "default" hard restriction. I thought hard restrictions were by definition manually created (although frequently unintentionally by editing a segment property without properly setting the restrictions).

Kuhlkatz wrote:A few trips through there would maybe not affect routing due to the soft settings, but with the new automated MP system, each junction traveled through a few times will potentially create an auto-MP as the hard restrictions do not match.
Sure, but now we are back to the priority issue. Should that happen, the area will get editor attention and these restrictions will be cleaned up.
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Re: Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby CBenson » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:20 pm

Kuhlkatz wrote:So based on this, if a new area is layed out and the names added as a seperate pass, or as I prefer, lay out and name the full-length streets first and then connect them afterwards, can we assume they were edited at least once more after the initial creation, so technically speaking their directionality *would* remain fixed, even if it is incorrect.

I'm getting in over my head here. The problem is that my experience is with base mapped roads and you are assuming a situation where an editor has laid out the area. So yes I think you are correct. But there are plenty of segments around here (although admittedly fewer all the time) that have never been touched by an editor at all as they were base map imports.

Kuhlkatz wrote:I'm not disputing anything or trying to pick fights here, I'm just curious about why some of you first-generation editors (read "old hands at this") prefer to leave sections like these, when a QW clean-up is fairly quick, especially if someone knows the area.

I don't prefer to leave sections like these. But a careful review of which turns should actually be restricted should be a part of the clean up. I just object to those that QW everything without taking the time to put back the turn restrictions that actually should be there.

Kuhlkatz wrote:I personally prefer to QW junctions while I create a section, so I know it's 'fixed'. Afterwards, red arrows when viewed with 'Connectivity Arrows' (Shift-Z) draws attention when zoomed out, and can be quickly verified as a valid turn restriction or not. To spot an invalid turn restriction here is going to be impossible if not cleaned up.
Right, when adding a new communities, which we don't get to do too often here, that's good practice.

Kuhlkatz wrote:So, as far as turn restrictions go, if they are never explicitly set using Q/W on the junction or clicking any arrows with the segment highlighted, only the allowed 'soft' ones are in place and no hard restrictions should exist for the segment / junction pair ?

That sounds right, but again most soft turn restrictions that we are dealing with here are base map imported roads that have never been touched by an editor.

Kuhlkatz wrote:What I am trying to get at is this : Do we know for sure that sections left like this would not generate auto-MPs due to intact 'soft' restrictions allowing everything, and having no other explicit restrictions set, or would it be better to spend a few minutes and take the precautionary approach ?
In the absence of anything else to correct on the map, it would be better to spend the few minutes and eliminate the soft turn restrictions. But if there are other URs and MPs around, I'm going to be addressing those areas rather than searching out soft turn restrictions in residential areas. The point is not that the soft turn restrictions should be left in place. The point is when converting them to hard restriction you should be reasonably sure that the turn restrictions are correct. You should not blindly QW an area that is full of soft turn restrictions. I think we are in agreement here as long as we recognize a clear difference between "blindly QWing" and "giving the area a quick once over."
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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby kodi75 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:35 am

AndyPoms wrote:When a road is created, the turns are "soft" denied, meaning Waze will route through them even if they are denied. This is because you can't prove a negative.


Best explanation yet - the wiki's page has it, but not as succinct.

If I {shift-z} in some areas there is a sea of soft-denied turns. It doesn't seem worthwhile to research whether to 'hard-allow' them all - unless there is a UR that draws me to that area or it affects a major intersection, right?
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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby kodi75 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:13 pm

They are "on my list" but low-priority.

Attending to URs, cleaning up existing roads, mapping new subdivisions, and encouraging new users to resist the temptation (a) to map every parking lot aisle and (b) splitting roads just b/c there is a median. Keep it simple!

And checking my work as well. oops! :oops:
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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby kodi75 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:56 pm

Kuhlkatz wrote:In my opinion it should be explicitly set for each junction, and not depend on user drives ever.


True. I do that when I add / edit roads . I just don't make them a priority when there is a sea of red.
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Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby Kuhlkatz » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:38 pm

If turn restrictions are not explicitly set by editors, you should likely point them to the little intro video. It clearly shows basics of adding a road, setting directionality and setting turn restrictions.
In my opinion it should be explicitly set for each junction, and not depend on user drives ever.
The first moron that makes an illegal u-turn, or case where Waze thinks you made the turn while stopped at the intersection could wrongly allow turns where they never should be.

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Re: Re: Default turns when adding new roads

Postby Kuhlkatz » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:35 pm

txemt wrote:You'd be surprised how quickly you could clean that up with QW.

+1

The alternative to that sea of red is a sea of orange.....
Just imagining each of those as a UR or a MP should be enough encouragement to spend 5 minutes tops doing a Q/W on each node and giving the area a quick once over to see if road markings includes one way arrows somewhere....

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