[PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city name)

Moderator: USA Champs

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Fri May 24, 2019 7:55 pm

Kartografer wrote:[...]I can get behind using incorporation or USPS recognition as a minimum standard, at least for my state.

That would work great for me too. I love it when we can forge national agreement rather than splintering guidance. But as you say things are so different from state to state, and some experienced editors are saying that there are times when it's useful to map as a city an area most folks agree is a neighborhood.

I have no idea where to draw the line. In fact I have no idea if the reasons behind the original prohibition against mapping neighborhoods (which was already in place when I started editing over 5 years ago) are even valid any more.

I started this thread specifically because Waze had mapped "UC Davis" as a city. While driving I saw it displayed prominently on the app, right next to "Davis" in equally large letters. I said to myself "that's ridiculous, UC Davis is a university, it deserves and already has an Area Place, but the city is Davis". I brought it up in Discord, and a local editor pointed to guidance that said the city should match the Waze city polygon. Thus my original post.

So, whatever we come up with as justification for a city, I just want to be sure "UC Davis" won't qualify :mrgreen:
DwarfLord
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:01 pm
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California USA
Has thanked: 1088 times
Been thanked: 1475 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Fri May 24, 2019 11:08 pm

:mrgreen: UNIVERSITY LA is recognized (if deprecated) as a place name for LSU by the USPS??? Do people write to GOVERNMENT DC, BOARDWALK NJ, BEACH HI, or SCHOOL CA?

OK maybe relying on USPS recognition to rule out silly city names isn't such a good idea.
DwarfLord
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:01 pm
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California USA
Has thanked: 1088 times
Been thanked: 1475 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Tue May 28, 2019 5:27 pm

I wanted to post another example of how relying on CDPs for primary naming can be problematic. Not only is there the case of "the City of UC Davis" I mentioned earlier, but California also has two CDPs named "Live Oak". One is Live Oak, a neighborhood of Santa Cruz that the Waze map helpfully calls "Live Oak CDP"; the other is Live Oak, an incorporated town north of Yuba City that the Waze map started out calling "Live Oak (2)". If we harmonized the place names to both be Live Oak we'd have a massive smudge, as they are roughly 150 miles apart.

(Separate issue is the number of years it takes for Waze to realize that one of its original cities needs its name changed; the old stuff seems to hang around in the back end in perpetuity.)
DwarfLord
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:01 pm
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California USA
Has thanked: 1088 times
Been thanked: 1475 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Tue May 28, 2019 7:11 pm

Perfect. Gives authority to local leadership while still providing some basic guidelines on analysis, and not too wordy or complicated. Two thumbs up.
DwarfLord
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:01 pm
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California USA
Has thanked: 1088 times
Been thanked: 1475 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby ehepner1977 » Fri May 24, 2019 2:03 am

ottonomy wrote:<snip>
I'm tempted to say that the only rule of Cities is that there are no rules, but that won't do.


My personal rule has always been "What city does the owner of the address use to tell people how to get to their property?" In many cases, it's quite easy to figure out, since there's a website for the business listing their address, or GIS parcel data for a residential area. Unfortunately, GIS is not universal, and has been demonstrated by several examples, probably biased. So, I'm with Otto, it's going to be a tough journey, but let's see what we can come up with.
SM: Missouri
ARC: PLN
LC: USA
[ img ][ img ] [ img ][ img ][ img ][ img ]
ehepner1977
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 735
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:14 pm
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 430 times
Been thanked: 534 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby herrchin » Wed May 22, 2019 7:07 pm

I would propose that the Road names infobox text be relocated into the body of the section. It is not our typical Waze wiki style to pull guidance out into an infobox, and it reads as end-all guidance, whereas the later text clarifies it is not:

section body text wrote:There are other standards in place for other purposes requiring adding other street data in the the alternate. The addition of the USPS data does not change any other standards but is in addition to anything existing already on those affected segments.


Kartographer: when you transpose to the wiki, a grammatical error snuck into both places as "That may means many addresses...".
USA Country Manager / UT SM
[ img ][ img ][ img ][ img ]
herrchin
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:05 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE, USA
Has thanked: 301 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby herrchin » Wed May 22, 2019 10:21 pm

Kartografer wrote:
herrchin wrote:Kartographer: when you transpose to the wiki, a grammatical error snuck into both places as "That may means many addresses...".

I struck through the s when I first posted this, but it's hard to see.

[ img ]

Kartografer wrote:And everyone here seems to think my name has ph in it ;)

[ img ]
I'll just... go home. I can't work the internet today. Sorry! :)
USA Country Manager / UT SM
[ img ][ img ][ img ][ img ]
herrchin
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:05 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE, USA
Has thanked: 301 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby herrchin » Fri May 24, 2019 1:46 pm

ehepner1977 wrote:
ottonomy wrote:<snip>
I'm tempted to say that the only rule of Cities is that there are no rules, but that won't do.


My personal rule has always been "What city does the owner of the address use to tell people how to get to their property?" In many cases, it's quite easy to figure out, since there's a website for the business listing their address, or GIS parcel data for a residential area. Unfortunately, GIS is not universal, and has been demonstrated by several examples, probably biased. So, I'm with Otto, it's going to be a tough journey, but let's see what we can come up with.

That was the basis of my argument in Discord. Waze is trying to get someone to an address almost always based on user-input from how that place is advertised (advertisement being me telling you my address over the phone, a web site, Facebook entry, etc.). It could be any manner of definitions, including colloquial names that have absolutely zero government recognition.

Many times they align with USPS primary, but not always, which is why the USPS may have several alternate names. Maybe it'll align with GIS, but not necessarily, as local plats are usually legally defined using a completely separate system (my house is NeighbornoodName 7th Addition, Block 5, Lot 17, and an ID value of 13 digits), and the street address in GIS could be barfed up from any number of sources.
USA Country Manager / UT SM
[ img ][ img ][ img ][ img ]
herrchin
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:05 pm
Location: Lincoln, NE, USA
Has thanked: 301 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby Kartografer » Wed May 22, 2019 2:30 pm

I agree that we should remove "within the boundaries of the city polygon" language, because yeah, it puts the cart before the horse for unlocked polygons or no polygons, and locked polygons are ten years old (imported with basemap in 2009) and could be out of date due to annexation or deannexation.

We were discussing on Discord the differences among states in defining what a city is, and specifically the usefulness of treating census-designated places as cities. Census-designated places represent closely settled, unincorporated communities that are locally recognized and identified by name. We basically came down to the fact that because each state makes its own laws regarding incorporation of cities, towns, villages, townships, boroughs or whatever else they want to call them, the editors there will have to make their own decision on whether or how to map CDPs, unincorporated areas that aren't CDPs, and even incorporated areas.

So while I would love a good national guidance statement about this, I really think we have to make it more local, just because every state is different in regard to this. So I'd propose:

Modified road names paragraph wrote:To keep city names from sprawling over too wide an area in the Waze app, in WME and LiveMap, a city name should only be used as a primary name onfor segments details within the boundaries of the city polygon located in areas determined by local leadership to be displayed as cities on the map, such as incorporated cities, villages, townships, boroughs, census-designated places, etc., depending on the state. That may means many addresses on the map are in these “no city” areas, particularly in rural regions.


Modified city names paragraph wrote:To keep city names from sprawling over too wide an area in the Waze app, WME, and Live Map, editors follow standards of placing the city name on segment details only within the boundaries of the city polygon area determined by local leadership to be displayed as a city on the map, such as an incorporated city, village, township, borough, census-designated place, etc., depending on the state. That may means many addresses on the map are in these “no city” areas, particularly in rural regions.


One more thing:
DwarfLord wrote:there are plenty of unincorporated towns already shown on the Waze map with boundaries established by the census bureau that may already be somewhat arbitrary, and there is no reason for us to be chained strictly to whatever the bureau thinks

I'm assuming that you refer to CDPs here (those seem to be the imported unincorporated areas). CDP boundaries are arbitrary like FC is arbitrary, FWIW. Someone in the government, who is paid to determine these things, applied detailed criteria and made a decision. If CDPs are useful in general in one's state, their boundaries are worth following, rather than what we might think a visiting driver might think is a city.
Last edited by Kartografer on Wed May 22, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[ img ]
Galaxy S9 running Pie on Mint
SM Ohio, AM New Mexico, South Dakota
Wazeopedia projects
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
-John 8:32
Kartografer
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:32 pm
Location: Westerville, Ohio, USA
Has thanked: 541 times
Been thanked: 773 times

Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby Kartografer » Wed May 22, 2019 8:09 pm

DwarfLord wrote:Could we go so far, at a national level, as to say that a USPS name is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for mapping a city using segments' primary name field?

At least in my state, I know of many incorporated villages whose names are not used by the USPS. Those should definitely be mapped. I have argued in the past that in Ohio, CDPs that don't appear in postal addresses should not be mapped, but I am not so sure now. It doesn't hurt to have them on the map, especially where their boundaries are marked on road signs. Also, I guess I don't feel like the assigning of city names to ZIP codes by the postal service is a corroboration of the existence of a populated place, since their primary purpose is improved routing of mail.

herrchin wrote:Kartographer: when you transpose to the wiki, a grammatical error snuck into both places as "That may means many addresses...".

I struck through the s when I first posted this, but it's hard to see. And everyone here seems to think my name has ph in it ;)
[ img ]
Galaxy S9 running Pie on Mint
SM Ohio, AM New Mexico, South Dakota
Wazeopedia projects
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
-John 8:32
Kartografer
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:32 pm
Location: Westerville, Ohio, USA
Has thanked: 541 times
Been thanked: 773 times

PreviousNext

Return to US Wiki Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bummerdude69