[PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city name)

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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby Kartografer » Wed May 22, 2019 9:31 pm

I understand your proposal and have wondered about this too. One counter-example I have is Finneytown, Ohio, a CDP with more than 12,000 inhabitants. USPS discourages the use of this name in favor of Cincinnati, but it is well known by locals and used on local businesses. It's worth having on the map, although not in place addresses. I even argued with a Cincy editor for changing all the place addresses to Cincinnati; he wanted to keep them as Finneytown. Is discouragement corroboration of existence?
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Wed May 22, 2019 9:51 pm

The zip code finder I linked previously spits out:

FINNEYTOWN OH 45224
FINNEYTOWN OH 45231

So the USPS corroborates the town name. Under my suggestion, this would mean that the name Finneytown could not be ruled out based on USPS data alone but perhaps there could be other reasons to disallow it on the Waze map.

How does the USPS discourage the use of the name Finneytown? I'm wondering how the USPS stance manifests. The USPS town-to-zip-code finder website isn't displaying anything that looks like discouragement.

One example I'm familiar with is the Santa Barbara airport property. The Santa Barbara airport is legally and formally part of the incorporated city of Santa Barbara, even though it shares no land connection with the rest of Santa Barbara (long story). Meanwhile, its zip code is that of the adjacent town, Goleta, CA 93117. You could say that Goleta "owns" that zip code, but in reality the USPS happily recognizes Santa Barbara, CA 93117. I've never heard anyone say that the USPS doesn't want people using the city name Santa Barbara for things going to 93117, at least not to the airport.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby herrchin » Wed May 22, 2019 10:21 pm

Kartografer wrote:
herrchin wrote:Kartographer: when you transpose to the wiki, a grammatical error snuck into both places as "That may means many addresses...".

I struck through the s when I first posted this, but it's hard to see.

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Kartografer wrote:And everyone here seems to think my name has ph in it ;)

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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby Kartografer » Thu May 23, 2019 10:53 am

DwarfLord wrote:The zip code finder I linked previously spits out:

FINNEYTOWN OH 45224
FINNEYTOWN OH 45231

So the USPS corroborates the town name. Under my suggestion, this would mean that the name Finneytown could not be ruled out based on USPS data alone but perhaps there could be other reasons to disallow it on the Waze map.

How does the USPS discourage the use of the name Finneytown? I'm wondering how the USPS stance manifests. The USPS town-to-zip-code finder website isn't displaying anything that looks like discouragement.

One example I'm familiar with is the Santa Barbara airport property. The Santa Barbara airport is legally and formally part of the incorporated city of Santa Barbara, even though it shares no land connection with the rest of Santa Barbara (long story). Meanwhile, its zip code is that of the adjacent town, Goleta, CA 93117. You could say that Goleta "owns" that zip code, but in reality the USPS happily recognizes Santa Barbara, CA 93117. I've never heard anyone say that the USPS doesn't want people using the city name Santa Barbara for things going to 93117, at least not to the airport.

I use the city finder by ZIP code, which serves a different purpose. The ZIP code finder by city is very inclusive, because USPS is trying to help people assign a ZIP code to an address based on which city they think it's in. The tool I use, which is what USGB links to, is for finding out what's the correct city name to use. So if you look up 45231 with that, for example, you get
ZIP Code™ 45231 is in:
CINCINNATI, OH

You could also use these for the city:
MOUNT HEALTHY, OH
WYOMING, OH

But don't use these:
FINNEYTOWN, OH
N COLLEGE HL, OH



If you look up 93117, Santa Barbara is under the "you could also use these" heading.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby sketch » Thu May 23, 2019 2:46 pm

DwarfLord wrote:To be clear, my thinking was not that a city name must be a primary USPS name to be eligible, but that it simply be corroborated by USPS. USPS is able to recognize/support different city names for the same zip code; that's good enough for me.

So, using the USPS tool for looking up zip code given city and state, I tried some of the names you listed. Results:

[...]

(For "Timberlane" USPS spit back "Timberlake" -- different town?)
TIMBERLAKE LA 71485

(Three results for Gretna)
GRETNA LA 70053
GRETNA LA 70054
This ZIP Code™ used for a specific PO BOX
GRETNA LA 70056

With the exception of Timberlane, the USPS recognized and was willing to handle all the names you mentioned. So all of them except Timberlane would pass my proposed necessary-but-not-sufficient test for a valid city name. From what you said it sounds like Timberlane is kind of on the hairy edge of being a neighborhood?

Timberlane is entirely within 70056, which the City Finder by ZIP Code says is "Gretna" but you can also use "Terrytown". Timberlane is not mentioned. Terrytown is its own CDP, part of which is also in 70056, and it's more of a household name than "Timberlane" (but which is still well known particularly to people who live on the Westbank). It's also more than twice the size of Timberlane.

I can understand your position given the examples I've seen so far, but nevertheless I do believe such names are helpful and useful for things like road reports and map display (in that, e.g., "Heavy traffic, Belle Chasse Hwy, Timberlane" gives you more specific information than "Heavy traffic, Belle Chasse Hwy, Gretna" does, or would if we required the USPS corroboration). Given that address searching shows you the city name you searched for regardless, I don't see a downside.

DwarfLord wrote:p.s. I'm definitely not proposing using anything from the USPS to determine boundaries! My proposal regarding USPS was just as a verification step for city names.

Good, just want to be sure we're on the same page again. As I understand it you're saying "you can use the CDP name, with the CDP's boundaries, as long as somewhere (I mean, somewhere in or near the CDP, whether or not there are any associated routes or boundaries), the USPS says it's an acceptable city name. Again, I understand, I just don't agree based on the examples I've come across so far.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DwarfLord » Thu May 23, 2019 3:06 pm

sketch wrote:As I understand it you're saying "you can use the CDP name, with the CDP's boundaries, as long as somewhere (I mean, somewhere in or near the CDP, whether or not there are any associated routes or boundaries), the USPS says it's an acceptable city name. Again, I understand, I just don't agree based on the examples I've come across so far.

Yes, that's my thinking. However, Kartografer's additional USPS info has made me question the utility of depending on the USPS. One of their websites says "oh yes, we recognize this name" while another of their websites says "we recognize the name but you shouldn't use it" without saying why.

Meanwhile USPS mail delivery at my office has been gradually declining to third-world quality, with parcel locker keys regularly going missing and taking several years (!!!) to be replaced, mail frequently misdelivered to other offices, and boxes "delivered" by being left in public areas. So I'm not a huge fan of the USPS at the moment. If there are good counterexamples of towns the Waze map should show that the USPS doesn't know anything about I'm not going to push for it.

I was simply hoping to find some reliable and independent means of distinguishing a neighborhood from a bona fide populated place worthy of display. As others said earlier in this thread with regards to CDP and FC, independent validation is generally much better than our sticking our fingers in the air and saying yeah or nah. CDPs have shown themselves to be inadequate for this purpose in my experience. The search continues, I guess...
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby ottonomy » Thu May 23, 2019 8:08 pm

All, please consider this post to be a placeholder for later (this evening? tomorrow?) when I have a chance to flesh out my thoughts below with explanation/background/evidence...

I am very pleased that this subject has come to the fore. I think it was grievously in need of work. But, I have some serious issues with the (natural) desires of those crafting the guidance to settle on one data source or another as more accurate, relevant, useful, reliable, etc.

USPS is rock solid in some places, and useless garbage in others.
CDPs are spot on in some places, but politically fabricated nonsense in others.

By "places" above, I do note mean entire states, or even entire metro areas. I can give examples inside of the Los Angeles area where one or the other source is preferable or perfect, and other examples where that same source is laughably wrong. We need standards by which we can objectively determine the rightness or wrongness. I fear that those standards might be excruciatingly difficult to produce in a reader friendly way, but I'm willing to join you all in the challenge.

I will also be making the argument that in some very specific cases, "neighborhoods" must be mapped, as they are the only names recognized by locals and visitors alike. Too specific for mention in the national wiki? Perhaps, but there needs to be some wiggle room there, or those who interpret every word of the wiki as a literal absolute will make life a continuous hell in those areas where rules must be broken.

I'm tempted to say that the only rule of Cities is that there are no rules, but that won't do.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby ehepner1977 » Fri May 24, 2019 2:03 am

ottonomy wrote:<snip>
I'm tempted to say that the only rule of Cities is that there are no rules, but that won't do.


My personal rule has always been "What city does the owner of the address use to tell people how to get to their property?" In many cases, it's quite easy to figure out, since there's a website for the business listing their address, or GIS parcel data for a residential area. Unfortunately, GIS is not universal, and has been demonstrated by several examples, probably biased. So, I'm with Otto, it's going to be a tough journey, but let's see what we can come up with.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby DrivingWithBill » Fri May 24, 2019 3:53 am

Newbie here, and still trying to get up to speed on the whole "City" issue. This has been something I am trying to better understand and

A couple of questions:
-Can we define or link better to what is the City Polygon, I dont have a clue on that topic?
-It sounds like there are a couple of different types of cities being thrown around: municipal, CDP and USPS, are there others that commonly get used?
-Is there a limit to the number of alternative cities that can be used for one location?
-Is there a better way to see the waze city limits in the editor?

I have recently been trying to look at this issue in New York, as where I live the division of the communities ranges from: City, Town, Villages and Hamlets (I guess a CPD). This appears to be a long standing challenge for the state.


Looking at Queens recently I saw that some of the Postal/Neighborhood names were being utilized. However reviewing zip codes for Queens, there are over 20 recommended names, and many more if you go with the other ones, and this is not event getting into the whole "Avoid" group. The number of possible city names for a location could quickly grow. Any suggestions?

Further, looking out on Long Island, Suffolk Countyhas a really useful GIS for this types of topics, with many municipal boundaries available. Reviewing the zip codes of Suffolk County, it appears that the almost all the ZIp Code cities reflect municipal names, while municipalities may not reflect the USPS names. It is quickly apparent that none of these cleanly align and that neither is really a good standard

Now the added complexity becomes with many roads having alt names and multiple possible cities what to do? Is waze even able to handle if we did all the alt names on a segment even if it is potentially 7 different cities. Where is the line?
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] City names (in Road name, Road name/city n

Postby herrchin » Fri May 24, 2019 1:46 pm

ehepner1977 wrote:
ottonomy wrote:<snip>
I'm tempted to say that the only rule of Cities is that there are no rules, but that won't do.


My personal rule has always been "What city does the owner of the address use to tell people how to get to their property?" In many cases, it's quite easy to figure out, since there's a website for the business listing their address, or GIS parcel data for a residential area. Unfortunately, GIS is not universal, and has been demonstrated by several examples, probably biased. So, I'm with Otto, it's going to be a tough journey, but let's see what we can come up with.

That was the basis of my argument in Discord. Waze is trying to get someone to an address almost always based on user-input from how that place is advertised (advertisement being me telling you my address over the phone, a web site, Facebook entry, etc.). It could be any manner of definitions, including colloquial names that have absolutely zero government recognition.

Many times they align with USPS primary, but not always, which is why the USPS may have several alternate names. Maybe it'll align with GIS, but not necessarily, as local plats are usually legally defined using a completely separate system (my house is NeighbornoodName 7th Addition, Block 5, Lot 17, and an ID value of 13 digits), and the street address in GIS could be barfed up from any number of sources.
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