[NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:52 pm

The branch draft that was in my user space has been transitioned into the trunk article.

https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/USA/in ... n_override

At some point in the future I think it would be good to re-evaluate some of the Continue use cases. The new organization and articulation of principles should hopefully make that process cleaner and easier.

Thanks to everyone for comments and support!
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby subs5 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:49 am

The current wazeopedia has adding a continue TIO for best continuations that are tolled, marked or unmarked. This includes toll roads, bridges, and paid entrances into large areas.
Waze already identifies if a toll road is included in the map. The MAR leadership team has determined that seems a bit chatty and is redundant to other indications in Waze. Wanted to see if other regions agreed prior to making an exemption for MAR from the current guidance.

Paid entrances to large areas would most likely include National Parks and it was determined that mapping the parks that had entrance fees that affected routing was not desired which seems to contradict the current wazeopedia. If they are mapped then the TIO announcing them would be incorrect if the NPS America the Beautiful Pass is added as a toll free restriction to the segment and the person has that pass added in the settings.
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby Kartografer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am

Is this only about park roads with fees like Skyline Dr?
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:44 pm

Historically, some editors have valued the Continue TIO's ability to add "informational events" to the instruction list, like changing freeway numbers or passing toll booths, that would help orient a driver when reviewing the instruction list before the drive. I believe this perspective influenced the list of example Continue use cases.

My own view, however, is that our best editing tradeoffs will assume the driver doesn't want Waze to talk unless it's important and is more interested in real-time instruction economy than in seeing specific milestones listed when viewing the instruction list ahead of time.

I expect it would be rare for a competent driver to be surprised or confused by the appearance of a toll booth on their Waze route. If the driver's destination is a gated and/or fee area, like a military base or a park, the driver should already know this; and even if they don't, it isn't Waze's job to be the first to tell them. If the driver has been routed over a toll bridge or via a toll road, Waze should already have displayed a warning that a toll is involved, so again it should not come as a surprise to the driver.

If we set aside the idea of adding gates/tolls as "informational events" for the instruction list, are there any specific situations where a competent driver could be surprised/confused when they find a gate/toll ahead of them, and where Waze would be doing the driver a service to alert them (potentially several times) about it as they approach?
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:42 pm

I do not believe this issue is as all-or-nothing as it is being characterized here.

A notification as soon as you are entering the point-of-no-return toll road entrance is prudent and warranted, where otherwise there would be no notification. The quintessential example is a freeway that might go on for dozens or hundreds of miles before becoming a toll road. I do believe this is useful and helpful. Yeah, the user gets a "TOLL" indication when they start the route, but that doesn't tell them much. If I'm driving to Manhattan, I know there will be a "TOLL" to cross the bridge or tunnel into the city, but I might not be prepared at the point when the Interstate becomes a Turnpike, or whatever.

Common sense should always be used, though. If you've got an unannounced entry onto a ferry-type segment, but all traffic had to turn onto the ferry landing 300 feet away, there is of course no need to add a "Continue straight" onto the ferry itself. If you've got a turnpike that has free sections, give notice only when the turnpike starts, not every time it transitions.

With a common sense approach, I don't think there will be all that many examples of this anyway. But I do think it's a useful notification (get your wallets out!) in many cases. And I would hope to keep the entire nation on the same page lest we have unsuspecting travelers fail to get expected notifications in just the one part of the country.
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:04 pm

sketch wrote:A notification as soon as you are entering the point-of-no-return toll road entrance is prudent and warranted, where otherwise there would be no notification. The quintessential example is a freeway that might go on for dozens or hundreds of miles before becoming a toll road. I do believe this is useful and helpful. Yeah, the user gets a "TOLL" indication when they start the route, but that doesn't tell them much. If I'm driving to Manhattan, I know there will be a "TOLL" to cross the bridge or tunnel into the city, but I might not be prepared at the point when the Interstate becomes a Turnpike, or whatever.

My question is, what to do if an ordinary competent driver would not be surprised or confused?

For example if they routed to Jellystone Park, and it's trivial to determine ahead of time that there is a fee for entering Jellystone Park, will they be surprised or confused to discover there is a fee booth at the entrance? Is it Waze's job to tell them about it as they draw near, possibly several times?

It's an interesting point that Waze could help the driver to "prepare" for a toll, by slowing down and getting the wallet out etc. Without qualification, this point would apply to every toll gate, including on long highways with frequent toll gates, which I don't think we want. So this point needs to be qualified somehow. In my experience toll situations are always well signed, so I don't see what Waze would really add to this situation; folks got on pretty well approaching toll booths before the Continue TIO existed. But maybe there are poorly signed situations where one comes upon the toll gate suddenly and without warning?

If, without the Continue instruction, the driver could be surprised or confused as they approach the toll/gate, then I support adding a Continue. Hopefully there is some middle ground. I too dislike splintering guidance by region, but it seems frequently to be inevitable.

[EDIT: Yes, "ordinary competent driver" may be an oxymoron :mrgreen:]

[EDIT II: If it's the "point of no return" aspect that's important, then the Continue should be placed at the last exit before the toll, not at the toll itself.]
Last edited by DwarfLord on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby Kartografer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:06 pm

What about just saying only use a continue instruction on roads that are tolled for everyone? That seems to be the issue with NPS entrances
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:37 pm

Kartografer wrote:What about just saying only use a continue instruction on roads that are tolled for everyone? That seems to be the issue with NPS entrances

Seems like that could lead to inconsistent driver experience? Say somebody goes often to fee-entry State parks, and always hears the announcement. Then they go to a National park and it doesn't voice.

A corollary issue involves electronic fee payment. A lot of bridges in our area have FasTrak type tolling. These are tolled of course, but the FasTrak driver (often a commuter) is typically well aware of the toll. FasTrak drivers need not prepare in any way; no wallet to get out. And, they are even less likely to be surprised or confused. However, the toll is still assessed, so should Waze alert them several times on every toll-plaza approach?
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby herrchin » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:54 pm

Some NPS have thru roads, such as Zion, which Waze will offer as a route option in the greater area. It's a $35 park entrance fee, and an extra $15 on top of that if you're driving something bigger than an SUV thru the narrow tunnel (escort fee).

However, there is no real "point of no return" when entering Zion from either direction, so I am of the opinion that a Continue is not warranted. It's like a giant example of sketch's ferry situation; you turned onto this miles ago, after selecting the tolled route. And you can turn around at any point and go back, even at the booth, if you forgot your wallet at the restaurant.
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Re: [NEW] Guidance for turn instruction overrides

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:48 pm

I would love to see a specific example of a route that takes a driver into a toll/fee/gate situation (1) that would likely surprise or confuse the driver, and (2) where hearing a Continue instruction at the toll plaza or gate would clear up that confusion and/or give the driver the chance to choose a different route early enough to make a difference.

Bonus points for a situation where the driver listening to music or an audiobook would likely feel thankful to have it interrupted several times on approach in order to hear that Continue.

I am not opposed to adding Continue instructions if the above conditions are satisfied, and am willing to see if I can come up with improved guidance to cover those situations. But I need examples to do that properly.
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