[NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby Kartografer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:47 pm

Lonewolf147 wrote:Oh the pages that exist in the Wiki. I'm always learning of new stuff on there. Did not know about that one, Subs. And you're right, that would be the best place to have more details for contraflow, especially since it actually mentions contraflow in the first paragraph.

That page actually started from a contraflow idea :lol: and yes, the title of the page is scheduled reconfiguration, so advance notice of the reconfig is assumed. The assumption is that with an unscheduled (not known in advance) reconfiguration, you just change the map to reflect the current reality. Maybe we need a caveat in the lead to say that?

And I totally agree that we should discourage RTC use in contraflows. I have run into several problems both within Google Maps and Waze because of this. In GMaps, a freeway can get shut down. In Waze, users get confused and think a freeway is shut down because they see closure bubbles and candy canes on it, so they drop unnecessary comments and URs.To problems in GMaps, normally I would also say "too bad, shoulda used Waze brah," but if our actions are causing freeways to be broken, it's just not right. Besides, we can allow for correct routing in Waze while not screwing up GMaps by just using TBSRs and TBTRs with contraflow situations when drawing the contraflow. As for one-way vs two-way setups, you still have to draw new segments for the crossover points even if using two-way, and you should remove the cardinal direction on the two-way segment, but you don't have to adjust geometry, and it seems like it would look nicer. We should probably recommend one or the other in the page.

I'd recommend publishing a separate page for contraflow, as it's a special situation, and as Scott said, is often unannounced in certain states. Once that is published, we can put links between it and the scheduled reconfig page. Also, I've been thinking about how roundabouts are a special case for scheduled and unscheduled reconfig. We should probably add information on building those in the roundabouts page too.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby subs5 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:48 pm

The way I do it to have the minimal impact is to have the counterflow two way and the crossover one way. Cross over has TBSR when first built and change them to RTC. (TBSR since easier to see in WME then the TBTR or the red TR). RTC so you can open once you know it is operational. Vice wait for a TU which make take up to 10 days on illtimed construction starts.

There are two times that Google can close down its freeway due to the above method.
1) When the new crossover segments have RTC so that Google may randomly close one of the directions of the interstate. This doesn't happen all the time but since Google doesn't have the cross over it tries to figure out what to close.
2) Closing the main freeway once it is closed, we usually put a TBSR and a RTC to close it till the TU. The RTC will probably be picked up by Google, but since they don't have the counterflow on their map the one direction is closed.

The options are to do the above and Google Maps might suffer if they don't pay attention and update their map or to not use RTCs and just TBSRs (or TBTRs) and have to wait for TUs and Waze is incorrect for say 1.5 days to about 2 weeks).
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby Kartografer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:07 pm

But if the TBSRs are maintained to end when the project is expected to be complete and updated as new information is released, then Waze can still be accurate to the day
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby subs5 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:39 pm

How quickly you forget about the 10+ day TU update delay. You do not get accurate to the day.

Even if you do get the day you only have like 0300 in the morning for the change. Most opening are more lke 1000 or 1800.

I prefer to use RTCs for these reasons.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby Kartografer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:55 pm

I'm not talking about relying on tile updates.

Say you have info that a contraflow situation will start August 28 and end September 28. Today, you map the crossover with a TBSR from now to 8/27 and then another TBSR from 9/28 to whenever. You add a TBSR on the normal roadway from 8/28-9/27. Then maybe you get a notice on 9/20 that the project is delayed a week. Adjust TBSRs accordingly, and let them play out.

This is assuming that a timely source of project information is available. It is where I live, but maybe I'm spoiled. Even if not, IMO inaccurate contraflow instructions for a few days (or even 10, yes) is a much smaller problem for people than shutting down a freeway in Google Maps, as much as I love Waze and want people to switch to it.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby subs5 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:04 pm

So you are willing to have Waze users improperly routed to an exit that this not accessiblefrom the counterflow for days to save Google Map Users any routing problems? I am not saying that you have to have the RTC there for the duration of months, but have had many a project where it is posted that it will end on x date and then a week after that date passes they post a new one.

RTCs allow that flexibility while TBSR don't and also if project ends early you just pull the RTC on the main segment and post RTC on cross over.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby Lonewolf147 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:46 pm

But where do we draw the line at being Waze editors trying to make our map work the best is possibly can, and having to concede to other mapping agencies that pull our data without thought to their own system? Wouldn't a lack of care on their part in ensuring their maps are as accurate as possible help to drive traffic (pun intended) to our maps? Isn't that how business works? You don't intentionally hurt your competition, but you also don't go out of your way to help them either.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby ldriveskier » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:51 pm

Lonewolf147 wrote:But where do we draw the line at being Waze editors trying to make our map work the best is possibly can, and having to concede to other mapping agencies that pull our data without thought to their own system? Wouldn't a lack of care on their part in ensuring their maps are as accurate as possible help to drive traffic (pun intended) to our maps? Isn't that how business works? You don't intentionally hurt your competition, but you also don't go out of your way to help them either.


In this case, we need to keep in mind that while Waze and Gmaps are "competitors", they are owned by the same parent company and shouldn't knowingly undermine one another.

Also, it is one thing if if we didn't know that our closures would negatively affect Gmaps. It is quite another thing that we know we'll cause issues (especially on freeways) and we do it anyway. That doesn't reflect well on either side and can look like it is intentional on our part.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby subs5 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:06 pm

ldriveskier wrote:Also, it is one thing if if we didn't know that our closures would negatively affect Gmaps. It is quite another thing that we know we'll cause issues (especially on freeways) and we do it anyway. That doesn't reflect well on either side and can look like it is intentional on our part.


There is a difference to intentionally cause a problem just to cause a problem. In this case we are getting Waze to properly route via the tools available to us. Google sometimes takes the information and improperly applies it to their map. We have this when they close a road for days after our temp closures are removed. That is Google's problem. It is interesting that some would rather provide bad routing to Waze users for several hours to several days than to potentially adversely affect users of another product. We are not intentionally trying to undermine Google Maps. Google brings it on themselves with their improper use of information/selective use of information.


Trying to get some map updates on Google Maps can take months and many submissions. Doesn't matter if you reference a GIS or another source, many frequently get rejected/wo reason or implemented but never appear on their map. With the demise of Google Map Maker, it is harder to get changes to improve their product.
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Re: [NEW PAGE] Contraflow Configuration (was Crossovers)

Postby Kartografer » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:58 pm

subs5 wrote:It is interesting that some would rather provide bad routing to Waze users for several hours to several days than to potentially adversely affect users of another product.

This statement seems to assume that the tradeoff involves equal adverse effects. It does not. If it did, of course I would say just make Waze work, since I like Waze, I think it's better than GMaps, and I want people to switch to it.
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