[Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

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Re: [Page Discussion] Places > Area Place Size

Postby Kartografer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:59 pm

From discussing with gOyDp and others, the concept of town center mall could get confused with a random group of strip malls, so I think it could use a little clarification along with example pictures. How about this (parenthetical addition in red)?
Area Place Size wrote:Area places will show up in the Waze mobile app if they are large enough.

Some area places have a single recognizable structure useful as a visual reference for Wazers as they approach this destination from various directions. These can be drawn to approximate the structure's footprint or outline, as long as this is large enough to show in the mobile application. Examples include landmark buildings like the Pentagon, as well as large shopping malls, hospitals or stadiums/arenas that are constructed as single buildings.

Other area places, like medical or university campuses and "town center" style shopping malls (mixed-use developments designed for outdoor pedestrian access), include more than one component, such as one or more buildings, open areas, roads, and parking. In this case, it is often most useful to Wazers to map to the edges of the property. This will usually show the area and its label in the mobile app even when zoomed out.

Guidelines for drawing a few specific categories are more detailed and should be reviewed to become more familiar with them:

  • Gas stations
  • Parking lots
  • Airports
  • Hospitals
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby gOyDp » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:00 pm

I like that. The pedestrian access verbiage definitely assists in clarification.
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby Kartografer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:02 pm

subs5 wrote:If you do go forward with the change in guidance, there should be a statement that changes should be made only when editing it for another reason. This does affect the presentation in the app, but does nothing for routing, which is the primary reason people use the app. Get me to the correct location (front door or equivalent) the fastest legal way.

So going around and changing all the places that were made to guidance at the time is probably not the best use of volunteers' time when other items need to be addressed at higher priorities.

I don't really agree with this.
Almost all guidance on places (with the exception of stop points and RPPs) does nothing for routing. We have changed many other things on the places page without such caveats, and I don't see a need to add them here. The only time it might make sense to add such a statement to a guidance change is when the new guidance is liable to misuse or point farming. Changing geometry of area places is not liable to misuse, and it certainly doesn't give easy points. Otherwise, editors are smart enough to determine their own priorities, and our guidance should reflect that.
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby subs5 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:38 pm

Waze has some changes that might obviate the need for the change. Should we table the discussion to see if it is still relevant after the changes?
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby dfortney » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:17 pm

That seems very logical, subs5 - I agree we should table the topic if the Waze changes are coming s-o-o-n.
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby sketch » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:17 pm

subs5 wrote:Waze has some changes that might obviate the need for the change. Should we table the discussion to see if it is still relevant after the changes?

No. This is a visual change. I don't know what coming change you could possibly be talking about that would affect this decision.

And I agree with Kartografer that there is NO reason to "wait until you're editing that shopping center for some other purpose before making the change" in this case. This isn't hundreds of thousands of micro-doglegs on the map. This affects shopping centers—large, visible, and limited in number. This is the type of change that should be done swiftly and all at once, or else you're creating an inconsistent visual experience for no reason.
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby DwarfLord » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

I don't disagree with the goal to make these changes "swiftly and all at once". I'm not sure I've ever seen any change happen that way, even the ones we wanted to, but I completely agree that there is no reason to discourage a campaign.

The key is whether the language is clear enough that editors who do launch into campaign mode won't do the wrong thing en masse. Maybe a few folks could ask rank-and-file editors in their region if they understand the proposed language to mean what we want it to mean.

All of this is of course contingent on the rumored change on the back end. As always it is not for us rank-and-file to know what is coming, but it would be great at least to have consistent guidance from those who do (or should) know. Unless Waze has begun to outdo even itself when it comes to compartmentalizing information.
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby subs5 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:03 pm

Since Waze has a minimum size limit for the AP to show in the app, how is the proposed change going to affect smaller shopping centers, schools, and urgent care facilities? Will we now have a lot of APs that aren't displayed on the app? If so should they just be mapped at PPs?
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby dfortney » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:33 pm

The proposal as it stands is only for large shopping malls with a single prominent building of sufficient size and scale to be map-viewable if mapped to the building exterior only. But the question will quickly arise why not do the same thing for schools, hospitals, ....
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Re: [Page Update] Places > Area Place Size

Postby DwarfLord » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:45 pm

Perhaps a general guideline could be a very simple one -- if a building has a unique and locally well-known name, and is big enough to show as an area place, and is not part of a "village center" sort of pedestrian or quasi-pedestrian collection of buildings, then it can get mapped to the building outline.

It hardly makes sense to display a shaded polygon on the app display without a meaningful name. So if a building has a name that's not locally well known (e.g. "Camino Asfalto Marketplace Building #13") then I would say it's unlikely to make a good area place as a building. This doesn't constrain there being a larger area place to the property line.

There is still the question of overlapping area places, for example a building (e.g. "DwarfLord Hall") inside a campus (e.g. "Golden Axe University"). If the display washes out and you just see the text "DwarfLord Hall" floating in a huge sea of gray, that seems like a poor use of a building-specific area place.
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