[Page update] Places/Parking lot

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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby Kartografer » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:31 pm

I could be reading this thread wrong, but I think we agree that if a lot has an official name containing its address (The Garage at 100 Clarendon Street), or if it serves a building that uses its address as its official name (250 Poydras), there's no problem with using the address in the name. As for taking names given by a parking app that are just addresses, I'm not seeing support for that, and I don't agree with it. After all, WazeParking1 imported all those address names from ParkMe, and there's an issue with data sources anyway if we use address-names from parking apps that are incorrect. As others have said, if you want to support search for the correct entry location of standalone lots that occupy a whole address, use a RPP or HN, and make the lot public, so that it will display in the parking finder. As for unnamed lots that share an address with an unnamed building, I'd guess that those will not be public lots, and people navigating to the address in general would be best served by putting a RPP where the parking is.

The current guidance seems to imply that address should never be used in the name of a lot, even if that's the official name. I doubt that was the intent and think it should be clarified. As also discussed in Discord in the past few days, the current guidance seems to imply that we need to put a name on every lot, because the paragraph about leaving lots unnamed is sort of buried under examples. One other thing discussed was the use of multiple entry points for PLAs. In a related thread, we agreed that they should be used, and it's fairly straightforward.

Therefore, I'd like to make a counter-proposal:
Proposed naming section wrote:If a parking facility or area has a documented identity according to signs or owner-provided information, such as Beach Street Garage, 18th Avenue/Geary Lot, Lot 7 - <Stadium name>, Short-Term Parking - <Airport name>, Cell Phone Lot - <Airport name>, The Garage at 100 Clarendon Street, etc., its place should reflect that name to facilitate searches. Generic park-and-ride lots should be named consistently according to local custom, for example as Park & Ride.

The foundational guidance for naming a PLA when the lot serves another entity, is to follow this basic format:
[Parking Descriptor] <restrictions> - [Entity served]
The framework is not recursive. In other words, there is only one business served in any lot name, and the rest of the name is the descriptor. As a rule the descriptor will always have a word in it identifying it as parking, e.g. parking, garage, or lot. The descriptor can be:

Completely generic - For single-business - single-lot

Parking - Starbucks

Purpose descriptive - Where there is only one lot of the type

Customer Parking - Office Depot, Employee Parking - Office Depot, Visitor Parking - LSU Eunice, Employee Parking - MSY [airport]

Location descriptive - Where more than one lot serve the same purpose for the same place

Southeast Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Macy's Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Grand Blvd Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Target Garage - Big Hill Shopping Center, Dillard's South Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, North Lot - Offices at Buildingtown Plaza

Named - Where the lot is given an official name

Garage 2A - Mercedes-Benz Superdome, Credit Card Lot - MSY

If a lot does not serve another entity and has no official and/or signed name, a block range or specific address should not be used to make up a name for a lot. Rather, leave the name blank, and be sure to add the address details in the address field. Some imported PLAs were created with the address or address block range as the name, these names should be removed accordingly. Check your local guidance for any variations.

NOTE: It is very important if there is no name for the lot that there be a proper address in the address field. If you don't know the exact address you should at least put the street the main entrance is on, and - if you can - an approximate house number. The address is needed to be displayed in the search results, and to differentiate the lot from all the others. Users can see the address displayed and know which lot it is when viewing the results list.


Examples
If a parking lot area place is contained within a larger area place, do not repeat the larger area's full name. For example, if the Domestic Garage is contained within the "SFO San Francisco International Airport" Area Place boundaries, it need not be named "SFO San Francisco International Airport Domestic Garage"; "Domestic Garage - SFO" is sufficient.

If a mall or shopping center has several lots which can be associated with various anchor stores in the mall/shopping center, the lots can be named for the anchor stores. For example: "Macy's Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center"

If a lot serves a building that uses its address as its official name, such as a high-rise residential development, the address may be used as part of the name. For example: "Parking Garage - 250 High"

In rare cases, a municipality or district provides public parking distinct from any other area place but without any documented or signed identity. These can be named after the municipality or district, for example, "Redwood City Public Parking". Do not use completely generic names such as "Parking" or "Public Parking" for anonymous parking facilities but rather leave them unnamed and add an address.

This changes the current section by:
  • Clarifying that addresses as official names of lots or entities served by lots can be used in the names of parking lots
  • Clarifying what an official name is (must be on signage or provided by the owner, i.e. not just what some parking app may say)
  • Moving the section on leaving certain lots unnamed to a place that is more logical and visible
  • Clarifying that the whole thing on not using addresses and leaving unnamed is intended for standalone lots without official names
Also within the drawing section, it adjusts language around entry locations to refer to multiple entry points, changes the link to point to the new guidance (when published) and adds the following
If a parking lot has multiple equally useful entrances, multiple entry points may be used.
The PLA page currently points to the general places page for info on setting entry points; this won't change as it would be redundant. There are a few changes to make capitalization consistent (as always I guess ;) )

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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby subs5 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:19 am

I can accept using just the parking lot operator website names.

After going over many (approximately 500 PLAs) in the DC area the parking apps use the names that the parking operators use. There is no point with the parking lot apps coming up with new and unique names. I had proposed using that as a source of the name since they appear to be a good secondary source since about 10-15% of the parking lots changed operating companies over about a year and a half from when Waze imported them. Needless to say it will be a constant challenge to keep them up to date. I am finding several SV signs where recent photos show the parking lot operator websites are not updated very well.

I think that Karografer's examples need one where just the address is used. Vice "18th Avenue/Geary Lot" Example is "901 New York Ave NW" in Washington DC

Here is the parking lot operator's website
[ img ]
Here is the front entrance to 901 New York Ave NW Washington DC. Note they have the address posted on either side of the door.
[ img ]
Here is the actual entrance to the garage on K St NW. Note they have the address of 901 New York Ave shown on this street. (Can't use a HN or RPP since the above photo is the actual entrance to building.
[ img ]

Searching for the address in the app will show both the address and Parking - 901 New York Ave
Search showing location of the address in the pin
[ img ]
if you select the 2nd item (parking lot) pin shows it is on K St NW
[ img ]

Understand that many don't do the full search but this is much more useful. And even if they don't do the search when these are recommended as the closest parking the name will match what they see when they drive up to the entrance on a different street.

Also should be noted that the driving distance to the parking garage from the front door is about the 3rd closest entrance but using the other requires a person to walk outside vice just to the stairs/elevator in the same building. Maybe not a big deal in Hawaii but the heat and humidity in August or the Snow/sleet in the winter can be more of a determining factor than the price of the lot.
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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby Kartografer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 am

That sounds good, using info from either the owner or the operator. And I like your example with "Parking - 901 New York Ave NW." It does appear that the address is used like the official name. We can add that as an example in the examples section. Is that good? Is there a better way to organize this?
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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby subs5 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:50 am

That is fine to add as an example.
It shows the official name and that the entrance is on a street at the back of the address. It also shows that the user has a choice of the address or where its parking is. Hopefully the pictures help the explain the concept.

Is is worth having a note at the bottom of the example about this is not for the street level parking lot at The Home Depot? Understand the concern about upending the way PLAs are done and this is just for when the lots are identified by their address as the lot's name.
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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:43 pm

This lot is not identified by the address. "901 New York Avenue NW" is the name of the high rise building behind it. The lot serves the building, it is not standalone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/901_New_York_Avenue

That fits into my proposed clarification of the current framework and does not support your proposition.
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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby Kartografer » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:50 pm

Yeah, the reason for using the address in the name must be because it is the official name of the business. An address given as the name of a lot by an operator is not a reason to put it in the name in Waze. We've been over this. I think my most recent counter-proposal addresses it, but the organization of the text could be improved for clarity. I've modified my proposal a bit with some subsection headings, an intro about why we name things, elimination of the examples subheading (since examples are throughout) along with irrelevant examples and NOTE, and distribution of its content among the relevant new subsections. I also added Alan's example of Parking - 901 New York Avenue NW in there. I think if we organize the guidance a little better, confusion and perception of inconsistency can be eliminated. How's this? New text in red and moved text in blue:
Naming wrote:How to name a parking lot depends upon whether that lot serves another entity or whether it stands alone, intended for use by anyone whose destination is nearby.

Serves another entity

The foundational guidance for naming a PLA when the lot serves another entity, is to follow this basic format:
[Parking Descriptor] <restrictions> - [Entity served]
The framework is not recursive. In other words, there is only one business served in any lot name, and the rest of the name is the descriptor. As a rule the descriptor will always have a word in it identifying it as parking, e.g. parking, garage, or lot. The descriptor can be:

Completely generic - For single-business - single-lot

Parking - Starbucks, Parking Garage - 250 High

Purpose-descriptive - Where there is only one lot of the type

Customer Parking - Office Depot, Employee Parking - Office Depot, Visitor Parking - LSU Eunice, Employee Parking - MSY [airport]

Location-descriptive - Where more than one lot serve the same purpose for the same place

Southeast Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Macy's Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Grand Blvd Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, Target Garage - Big Hill Shopping Center, Dillard's South Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center, North Lot - Offices at Buildingtown Plaza

Named - Where the lot is given an official name

Garage 2A - Mercedes-Benz Superdome, Credit Card Lot - MSY
Examples
If a parking lot area place is contained within a larger area place, do not repeat the larger area's full name. For example, if the Domestic Garage is contained within the "SFO San Francisco International Airport" Area Place boundaries, it need not be named "SFO San Francisco International Airport Domestic Garage"; "Domestic Garage - SFO" is sufficient.

If a mall or shopping center has several lots which can be associated with various anchor stores in the mall/shopping center, the lots can be named for the anchor stores. For example: "Macy's Lot - Big Hill Shopping Center"

If a lot serves a building that uses its address as its official name, such as a high-rise residential development, the address may be used as part of the name. For example: "Parking - 901 New York Avenue NW"

Standalone
If a parking facility or area has a documented identity according to signs or information from the owner or operator, such as Beach Street Garage, 18th Avenue/Geary Lot, Lot 7 - <Stadium name>, Short-Term Parking - <Airport name>, Cell Phone Lot - <Airport name> The Garage at 100 Clarendon Street, etc., its place should reflect that name to facilitate searches. Generic park-and-ride lots should be named consistently according to local custom, for example as Park & Ride.

In rare cases, a municipality or district provides public parking distinct from any other area place but without any documented or signed identity. These can be named after the municipality or district, for example as "Redwood City Public Parking".

Unnamed
If a lot does not serve another entity and has no official/signed individual or group identity,
do not use a completely generic names such as "Parking" or "Public Parking"for anonymous parking facilities but rather leave them unnamed and add an address., or a block range or specific addressshould not be used to make up a name for athe lot. Rather, leave the name blank, and be sure to add the address details in the address field. Some imported PLAs were created with the address or address block range as the name; these names should be removed accordingly. Check your local guidance for any variations.

NOTE:It is very important if there is no name for the lot that there be a proper address in the address field. If you don't know the exact address you should at least put the street the main entrance is on, and - if you can - an approximate house number. The address is needed to be displayed in the search results, and to in order to differentiate the lot from all the others in the parking finder. Users can see the address displayed and know which lot it is when viewing the results list. If no address is entered, the lot will simply display as "Parking lot."


I also revised the mbox at the top of the page in accordance with what JM wrote earlier, that they aren't really rolling out new parking features to the app now; it has been three years. Here's what I propose for that:
new banner message wrote:New parking features have been rolled out to display parking lot areas in the client app. Convert parking lot point places to area places. New parking lot point places can no longer be created. Waze has also imported new parking lot places. Do not delete them unless instructed to do so. Use the guidance here to improve their name, data, shape, and placement. Add parking lots to the map in accordance with this page. Initially we should focus on adding large and/or popular lots, but all lots should eventually be added.

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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby voludu2 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:56 pm

I'm a little unsure of "do not delete them unless instructed to do so". By whom?
What if the parking lot (point or place) imported by Waze is incorrect, or the parking lot has now been eliminated entirely?

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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby Kartografer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:31 pm

Yeah that is pretty dated, so we should get rid of that statement. Things that were imported in 2016 should be deleted, if they are not there now.
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Re: [Page update] Places/Parking lot

Postby moogonk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:32 pm

I agree with the most recent post by Kartographer, above.

Is this a good time to ask about the locking standard?

Due to this major shift in editing guidelines, it is recommended that once a Parking Lot Area (PLA) has been added, that it be locked to 3 to avoid newer editors, or those not familiar with the change, from editing or deleting the PLA.

One: This is no longer a "major shift"-- that was years ago, now. Two: Locking to 3 seems excessive in light of other locking standards. Can we lower the national standard to "2"?
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