[PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgrounds)

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[PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgrounds)

Postby DwarfLord » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:40 pm

Now that the dust has settled somewhat on Waze's big parking push, and a significant change to the instruction behavior of Parking Lot Roads (PLRs) has been introduced, I would like to dust off the question of what road type to use in campgrounds (please see the "historical background" section below for a brief history of this question).

Currently, the Road Types sections on PLRs and Private Roads (PRs) make no mention of the new inheritance-blocking behavior of PLRs. And, the PR section lists "Campgrounds or trailer parks (designed for short term guests)" as a suitable application for PR.

But now that PLRs block inheritance, it seems to me this outweighs whatever benefits (?) we were getting by marking unnamed campground roads as PR. Campground roads are typically unsigned and unnamed. Drivers routing out of campgrounds via unnamed PRs may receive inherited instructions that would be unhelpful at best, counterproductive at worst.

I'd like to recommend that the list item "Campgrounds or trailer parks (designed for short term guests)" be removed from the PR section of Road Types and placed in the PLR section. And, I'd like to add a sentence regarding the inheritance blocking. Proposal, additions in red, moved from PR to PLR in green:

proposed addition to PLR Road Type wrote:Unlike other road types, unnamed Parking Lot Roads do not support road-name inheritance when routing through them to named roads.

Use Parking Lot Road for unnamed roads within campgrounds or trailer parks (designed for short term guests)


HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

A couple of years ago the question came up of whether campground roads should be typed as PLR, PR, or something else . The predominant view seemed to be that PLRs should be reserved for things that were somehow associated with parking, particularly in light of Waze's then-recent and heavy emphasis on parking features. I hope I am representing that view correctly. I preferred PLRs for campgrounds because I felt they displayed more appropriately/accurately, but I agreed that PRs would route as well as PLRs for campground roads, and without the undesired association with parking.

This discussion then carried over into a proposal to update the wiki in association with what I thought I was hearing, that PLRs' preferred use was in parking-related situations. At this point the question of Alleys came up, and there was strong resistance to the idea of prohibiting the use of PLRs for them. I was a bit lost at this point, since it seemed to me that Alleys don't have much more to do with parking than campground roads. In any event the use of PR for campground roads is current preferred USA practice, while Alleys are mentioned as an appropriate use for PLR.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby DwarfLord » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:42 pm

Breaking multi-post rules here to add that I've been informed that, at present, unnamed PR do not inherit either.

This invalidates the part of my proposal that says that the balance of benefits has shifted.

Personally I still believe PLR makes a better type for unnamed campground roads purely for display reasons, and so I will not withdraw the proposal regarding campground roads. But in light of this new information I will not push very hard for it.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby Kartografer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:25 am

I tried to read back through the threads you linked. I didn't read everything, but it sounds like the consensus formed around PR for campgrounds rather than PLR or Street because we don't want through routing, we want them to be thinner, they are like private communities (at least trailer parks) and Waze staff appear to have intended PLR only for parking lots, as implied by PLA MPs.

Since then there are no more PLA MPs due purely to a request from our champs (thanks guys!), and both PLR and PR don't inherit names, but PLR has a fixed speed of 20 km/h. Names display on PR now; not sure if that's new. Oh and we got Passageway.

What's the display reason? In the default color scheme (what normal users use) there is little difference in appearance between PLR and PR. The fixed PLR speed is also sub-optimal for campgrounds, and I'm not seeing a benefit to changing them to PLR.
Last edited by Kartografer on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:59 am

Kartografer wrote:[...]it sounds like the consensus formed around PR for campgrounds rather than PLR or Street because we don't want through routing, we want them to be thinner, they are like private communities (at least trailer parks) and Waze staff appear to have intended PLR only for parking lots, as implied by PLA MPs.

Actually, PLR displays thinner than PR, which is precisely why I prefer the PLR display. In terms of through routing the two types are essentially equivalent.

As far as Waze staff appearing to intend PLR only for parking lots, and to not want us to use their road types in ways that violate their wishes, please see this post that came towards the end of the discussion.

I think, at the time of those threads, the editing community was uncertain about where Waze was going with the whole Parking thing. (Now it's not clear if even Waze knew where it was going with it. But I digress.) Anyway, there was a heightened level of concern that we should be sensitive about expanding the use of PLRs at that time.

Kartografer wrote:What's the display reason? In the default color scheme (what normal users use) there is little difference in appearance between PLR and PR.

I beg to differ. Please see this post and the attached screenshot. There is an easily-noticed difference in display thickness between PLR and PR, at least at this zoom level.

Kartografer wrote:The fixed PLR speed is also sub-optimal for campgrounds [...]

In my experience people drive through campgrounds at dramatically different average speeds; some trundle along because they've already got their campsite buttoned up and they know where they're going, while others stop and go and stop and go. This character doesn't lend itself to measuring useful transit times. Meanwhile, PR may highlight jams inside the campground if even one or two drivers are proceeding stop-and-go to check out campsites; PLR won't.

Kartografer wrote:[...] and I'm not seeing a benefit to changing them to PR.

Thanks for the agreement, but did you mean to say PLR?
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby Kartografer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:49 pm

I figured that Waze never told us exactly how to use PLR; that's why I said implied. It's probably not a good argument anyway, though, since we use PLR for alleys and apartments and have gotten PLR-induced PLA MPs for those too.
DwarfLord wrote:
Kartografer wrote:What's the display reason? In the default color scheme (what normal users use) there is little difference in appearance between PLR and PR.

I beg to differ. Please see this post and the attached screenshot. There is an easily-noticed difference in display thickness between PLR and PR, at least at this zoom level.

So I agree with wanting them to display thinner than streets. I haven't been able to accurately measure this, but from looking at areas of the map with multiple road types, if street's thickness is 6, PLR is 2 (same as Passageway) and PR is 3 (same as pedestrian path types). That's what I mean by little difference. I agree with having them display thinner than street. PR looks a lot more like PLR than street. To me, it's thin enough.
DwarfLord wrote:
Kartografer wrote:The fixed PLR speed is also sub-optimal for campgrounds [...]

In my experience people drive through campgrounds at dramatically different average speeds; some trundle along because they've already got their campsite buttoned up and they know where they're going, while others stop and go and stop and go. This character doesn't lend itself to measuring useful transit times. Meanwhile, PR may highlight jams inside the campground if even one or two drivers are proceeding stop-and-go to check out campsites; PLR won't.

I don't think it is that sensitive, because of the low average speed. But if there is a real jam, why not let it be highlighted? Campgrounds can get pretty busy.

My larger point is 12 MPH is a pretty low speed to use. On long roads going from remote campsites, this can throw off ETA. I'm guessing that the speed for PLR was fixed at this low value because of the difficulty of recording good speed data in parking lots with much stopping and going (much more than in a campground) on commonly short segments. Residential streets have a good amount of stopping and going too (deliveries, people finding somewhere to park for a party, just sitting in cars); doesn't seem to cause problems with the street type. I'd bet that PR gives more accurate ETA than PLR, especially if multiple routes exist through a campground, some with campsites (and people stopping) and some without.
DwarfLord wrote:
Kartografer wrote:[...] and I'm not seeing a benefit to changing them to PR.

Thanks for the agreement, but did you mean to say PLR?
Yes, edited. Thanks for pointing it out. I was getting sleepy. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the relative benefits of PLR vs PR are mostly personal preference and speculation, and without anything more solid, I don't see a reason to change all the campground roads.

By the way, names display on both... Maybe they always did?
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:21 pm

Maybe we need to clarify what is meant by a "campground road". What I'm thinking of is more like a "campsite road" -- the road that directly serves two or more campsites.

In my experience, campsite roads are always very slow. There are RVs looking for a good spot, bicyclists, dogs, kids playing, multiple families staying in adjacent sites wandering back and forth, fishermen walking to the lake, day hikers setting out on a trip, etc. The roads are typically narrow and often twisty with sharp turns and poor visibility. Usually the campground has been designed such that these are not through roads to anywhere, even within the campground, for good reason. Those are the roads I think are more suitable for PLR.

Stepping back a bit, what we call a "campground" can mean dramatically different things. Some campgrounds are nothing but a short unnamed dirt pull-out with a few picnic benches and a pit toilet. Others are like little cities, with multiple camping "neighborhoods" spread over a large area along with visitor and interpretive centers, gift shops, vista points, paid shower facilities, restaurants, etc. On reflection, given the level of variety possible, I don't think guidance should try to force a single road type for all segments inside anything called a "campground" -- whether PR, PLR, or even LS or PS.

But I'll stick to my recommendation of PLR for campsite roads. A campground where drivers regularly fly past campsites at a consistent 25 MPH is a campground I'll avoid, thanks!
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:37 am

OK, I know what you mean, and yes there are roads of various speeds within a campground or RV park. So what then? Just don't mention roads that don't serve campsites? i guess I still don't see why PR can't work on those. Yes PLR would work OK too on campsites at least, but it is nice to have simple, national guidance.
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:53 am

Kartografer wrote:OK, I know what you mean, and yes there are roads of various speeds within a campground or RV park. So what then? Just don't mention roads that don't serve campsites? i guess I still don't see why PR can't work on those. Yes PLR would work OK too on campsites at least, but it is nice to have simple, national guidance.

PR will work. I think it's less ideal for all the reasons I've stated, but if the goal is making things easy for editors, then I agree it is easier simply to say make them all PR and have done with.

Hypothetically, if unnamed PR were to inherit again, would you reconsider? Or would your perspective remain the same even if using PR meant inheriting incorrect road names within a campground?
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Re: [PAGE UPDATE] Road types - PLR&PR (Inheritance/Campgroun

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:19 pm

I suppose if there were a difference in inheritance, that could sway things. In the CC thread I mentioned on Discord, everyone wanted the removal of inheritance behavior from PLR, and many wanted it removed from PR too. Some US champs asked for it to be kept on PR; it appears to be a global change at this point, however.
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