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Schools and Stop Points

Post by DrivingWithBill
I am still quite new at all of this and realize it might take an act of got to make even minor changes to the wazeopedia, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on requiring that schools have entry points. My experience has been that these often large area places frequently do not have a stop point associated with them and this causes poor routing to the wrong side of the property.

I think it would be prudent that schools be required to have an entry point assigned when creating them, this can then be something that WMEPH helps identify as it already does this for Parking Lot Areas.
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Post by DrivingWithBill
Ok good to know the process.

Looking at the National list here are my initial thoughts: Yes, No, Sometimes
Gas Station - Yes
Airport - Yes
Bridge - No
Junction/Interchange - No
Rest Area - Sometimes
Seaport/Marina - Yes
Tunnel - No
Cemetery - Sometimes
College/University -Sometimes
Convention Center - Yes
Embassy - Yes
Fire - Yes
Hospital - Yes
Jail - Yes
Military - No
Police- Yes
School - Yes
Shopping Center - Sometimes
Casino - Yes
Race Track - Sometimes
Stadium - Sometimes
Theme Park - Sometimes
Zoo - Yes
Construction - No
Campground - Yes
Beach - Sometimes
Golf - Yes
Park - Sometimes
Ski - Sometimes
Canal - No
Dam - No
Forest -No
Island - No
River - No
Sea - No
Marsh - No

Did I miss any, I think I’ve seen regional variance but probably best for them to handle. Thoughts?
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Post by DrivingWithBill
This all stemmed from wanting WMEPH to flag a location as not having an entry point. Apparently it needs wiki guidance. I think there are plenty of examples not needing an entry point however without wiki guidance apparently there is little that can be done for the scripts.
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Post by DrivingWithBill
How does this move forward? WMEPH said taking it to the wiki, wiki is saying taking it to PNH? I’m confused on how to get this implemented?
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Post by DrivingWithBill
Based off the discussion here, it sounds like Parent Category of "Natural Feature" which people feel they don't need by default an entry point all others are encouraged, is this a good summary?
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Post by DwarfLord
The Places article already says (emphasis mine):
Existing langauge wrote:Entry point

An entry point (formerly known as a stop point) causes navigation to a place to end on the drivable segment closest to the entry point, rather than the point place marker or the center of the area place. [...] If an entry point is needed, it can be added by [...]

Single

One entry point can be added to all types of places, whether area or point. [...]
This says everything we need already, does it not? But granted it's not especially clear. How about adding something like the following to the Places article, as the first subsection under Entry Point (i.e. just before "Single" and "Multiple"):
Proposed wrote:Entry point

An entry point (formerly known as a stop point) causes navigation to a place to end on the drivable segment closest to the entry point, rather than the point place marker or the center of the area place. [...] If an entry point is needed, it can be added by [...]

Implicit

Area Places without any entry point at all have an implicit entry point at the center of their area. If this implicit entry point could misroute drivers using the Area Place as a destination, add at least one explicit entry point at an appropriate terminus for routing.


Single

One entry point can be added to all types of places, whether area or point. [...]
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Post by DwarfLord
DrivingWithBill wrote:This all stemmed from wanting WMEPH to flag a location as not having an entry point. Apparently it needs wiki guidance. I think there are plenty of examples not needing an entry point however without wiki guidance apparently there is little that can be done for the scripts.
Thanks for clarifying (repeating?) your ultimate goal. I think I understand now.

I expect the reason for requiring wiki guidance is that it is not unheard of for some editors to fall into a mode of blindly doing whatever a script tells them to do without investigation or analysis. Most of the time the results are beneficial, or at least neutral, but on occasion they are disastrous. So yes, the community can be a bit sensitive about scripts suggesting changes that are not absolutely justified by agreed-upon guidance.

We've identified some ways we could improve the Places article, but it sounds like that would not actually solve your problem. What you need is wiki backup for a script writer to flag schools with no explicit entry point.

If that's the goal, then I agree that something having to do with per-category Place harmonization would be the place for that wiki backup.

Schools are a very popular destination category and I would have no problem with requiring an explicit stop point for them. Since the purpose is not to educate editors but rather simply to give backup to script writers, I'm not sure I could get behind a huge new requirement list covering a wide variety of categories besides Schools and maybe a handful of other popular destination categories. The language could just say the list is not exclusive, or use your judgement, blah blah.
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Post by DwarfLord
Kartografer wrote:[...] each region has appointed one or more people as PNH moderators; they are given the authority not just to update the PNH tables but to make those calls in their regions.
Just curious, where should the OP go for a nationwide PNH ruling? If we can accommodate him with a nationwide top-down call, I imagine that would be better than a number of bottom-up calls by regional moderators.
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Post by DwarfLord
DrivingWithBill wrote:Based off the discussion here, it sounds like Parent Category of "Natural Feature" which people feel they don't need by default an entry point all others are encouraged, is this a good summary?
I like the word "encouraged". I don't think it should be regarded as an outright fault/mistake/error if an Area Place does not have an explicit entry point assigned, or that a script should appear to require that editors add them. But I'm good with scripts flagging parent categories other than Natural Feature as "explicit entry point recommended".
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Post by DwarfLord
Kartografer wrote:OK, so how about my proposal from this morning?
The following look OK?
Area place location details wrote:By default,navigation to an area place will stop on the segment closest to the center of the area. If this is not where drivers would stop when bringing people to the place, each area place has an implicit entry point located at its center. This implicit entry point may or may not yield best routing results, so to ensure optimal routing, it is recommended to add one or more explicit [[#Entry point|entry points]] may be used to all area places, unless these places are except those typically used for display only (lakes, islands, etc.), such as any place in the "Natural Feature" parent category.
Entry point wrote:An entry point (formerly known as a stop point) causes navigation to a place to end on the drivable segment closest to the entry point, rather than the [[#Location details|point place marker]] or the [[#Location details 2|center of the area place]].
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