A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

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A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi,
Long time user/editor, but new forum user. I see that this is the area to post editing requests for for locked segments. So here we go:

1) No turn allowed from side streets Grand Concourse:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

2) No left turn allowed from east fordham to grand concourse
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

3) Can not turn from Fort Hamilton Pkwy to E 5th St
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

4) Can not make a left from Regent Place to Ocean Avenue
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

5) Should be able to make a right from Ocean Ave to Cortelyou BLVD
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

6) Turn should be allowed from Bayway Circle onto US Hwy 1 E
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=31964582

7)Ram should not say "To Degraw Avenue"
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... s=57801554

8) Straight segment should not be a ramp in order for proper directions ("exit to right" instead of "bear to the right")
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=57779458

9) By classifying the road as a ramp, the vocal instructions will not say "keep to the right". Therefore we need to reclassify the road to the same road type and change the name of the other 'exit'. Probably by simply adding a prefix "to"
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=8&lat ... s=31808433

10) Similar to #9. When traveling west bound on 46, in order for the directions to say 'keep left', the street name has to be different from the road you are already on. Therefore the addition of a prefix like "to" will suffice.
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

We'll stop here for now. I'll do more later :)

Thx!
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby weeezer14 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:20 pm

Be careful with changing things to not be ramps. In some situations a ramp is the only way to force the client to give a navigation instruction. So if you have a fork and only one is a ramp, you may only get an instruction when you go on the ramp and Waze will remain absolutely silent if you go the other way. And no, having a different name won't help.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:53 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:Be careful with changing things to not be ramps. In some situations a ramp is the only way to force the client to give a navigation instruction. So if you have a fork and only one is a ramp, you may only get an instruction when you go on the ramp and Waze will remain absolutely silent if you go the other way. And no, having a different name won't help.


Exactly... that is why I'm trying to undo that and make sure it does give the proper voice navigation to both right & left.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby weeezer14 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:50 pm

Wajo357 wrote:
WeeeZer14 wrote:Be careful with changing things to not be ramps. In some situations a ramp is the only way to force the client to give a navigation instruction. So if you have a fork and only one is a ramp, you may only get an instruction when you go on the ramp and Waze will remain absolutely silent if you go the other way. And no, having a different name won't help.


Exactly... that is why I'm trying to undo that and make sure it does give the proper voice navigation to both right & left.


Maybe I misunderstood a few of the examples then. I'll try to take a look again later this afternoon.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby weeezer14 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:51 pm

1.) Turn restricted/allowed as I think they need to be. Double check me.

2.) Multiple turns restricted.

3.) Turn restricted.

4.) Turn restricted.

5.) Turn enabled.

6.) Turn enabled.

7.) Proper exit names applied to this and downstream ramps including removing names from some. I also tweaked the ramp geometry a bit to make the splits clear and obvious.

8.) We should not go from ramp to street to ramp. It will break long distance routing. If the only problem is "keep right" vs. "exit right", that is too minor to worry about.

9.) I can't find the specific segment you are talking about. That segment ID isn't in the view you permalinked.

10.) I updated the split to what I know works. A few of us Champs are discussing and testing if we need to go this far to ensure instructions. In my experience, I think we do. (I also tweaked some of your geometry. It doesn't need to be perfect by any means, but your curves should be a little more smooth ;) )

I can guess what you meant for #9, but I'll let you confirm and look at what I did for #10 before doing anything else ;)
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:51 pm

Thanks for all of your help!

WeeeZer14 wrote:8.) We should not go from ramp to street to ramp. It will break long distance routing. If the only problem is "keep right" vs. "exit right", that is too minor to worry about.


Yeah... that's how it was, but after driving through that area a few times the voice instructions were bad enough to warrant me changing it to a street. The reason is that I take exit 70B. So before I get to 70A, it says "Keep left for 70B". In truth, if anyone gets to the left late, they probably won't have time to get back over. The roads doesn't split which would warrant a 'keep left' or 'keep right'. It should just tell the person "exit right" when the time is right to exit off of the road. In order for the voice to do that, you have to be driving on a non-ramp with the directions 'exiting' to a ramp. I know I'm probably being a bit anal, but I feel that this would be dangerous for someone not knowing this road to get to the left lane and then immediately to the right if following waze's directions (which they should).

More about my understanding of 'keep left' vs 'exit left' below.


WeeeZer14 wrote:9.) I can't find the specific segment you are talking about. That segment ID isn't in the view you permalinked.


Hmm... the permalink works for me. You'll see the highway split. However, the road to the left is classified as a ramp but the road to the right is just continuing the highway. This current approach doesn't tell anyone to keep to the right. Therefore we need to change that. From my experience editing the map I understand the voice commands as follows:
    ROAD Currently ON--------------Road Splits into------------Travelling to-----------Voice Directions
    A) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Non-Ramp-----------Ramp--------------------"Exit to..."
    B) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Non-Ramp-----------Non-Ramp---------------NO VOICE
    C) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Ramp----------------Ramp---------------------"Exit Left/Right"
    D) Ramp---------------------------- Ramp/Ramp----------------Ramp---------------------"Keep Left/Right"
    E) Non-Ramp------------------------Non-Ramp/Non-Ramp-----Non-Ramp---------------"Keep Left/Right" (As long both road names from the split are the same road type and have different names from the source road)

    For #8, the driver is expecting "Exit Right to 70B..", with is A
    For #9 and #10, the driver is expecting "Keep left to..." which is E

    I may be wrong about some of these, but this is how I understand it based on what I've been experiencing editing and driving for the past year with Waze. Feel free to correct me.

    WeeeZer14 wrote:10.) I updated the split to what I know works. A few of us Champs are discussing and testing if we need to go this far to ensure instructions. In my experience, I think we do. (I also tweaked some of your geometry. It doesn't need to be perfect by any means, but your curves should be a little more smooth ;) )


    Thanks again. I agree with you 100% that we should be giving directions when the road splits and it is not a self-evident exit. I hope you don't mind if I have 2 small critiques:
    1) When naming the two segments, you wrote "To" instead of "to", per the wiki (https://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/How ... 6_Acronyms). Just a nitpick, but I think grammatically, the word 'to' isn't capitalized in titles.
    2) Based on my table above, your route will create a voice command of "Exit Left/Right", option C above. I believe if you look at the street view, the best approach should probably be E (as I stated above) (as these don't appear to be technically 'exits'). You can see an example of what I did with E here:
    https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

    The regular road was named "State Rte 4" and it didn't say "Keep Left..." when I reached the fork. By changing the left name to simply "State Rte 4W", Waze sees that all 3 names are different, but the road types are the same, so it will use "Keep Left/Right". And now the voice directions are perfect when I go through those exits/splits.


    Again, thank you very much. Let me know what you think of my table and your opinion of approaches.
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    Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

    Postby Wajo357 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:33 pm

    3 more:

    11) Varick St from the top should have a 'turn allow' for the ramp
    https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

    12) White Canal St segment should not be able to turn back on the road coming from the bridge
    https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=8&lat ... s=65443094

    13) Turn should be allowed from 12st St to Marin Blvd
    https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT
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    Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

    Postby Daknife » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:36 pm

    The Exit right and Stay right instructions are also affected by they angle of the turn, less than 45 degrees will say "Keep right" or "Exit Right" More than 45 degrees will give a "Turn Right" command. So some of us will zoom all the way in and put a geometry node right next to the connection point to create a false 90 degree turn. I usually to this on right turn lanes to avoid ramp like instructions. It also helps avoid the keep left instructions just to go straight down the freeway. Put that micro dogleg at the beginning of the ramp and it will give the "Exit Right" command but say nothing about keeping left.

    Here is an example. I'd been getting UR's about users being told to keep left when passing this interchange, so I installed a micro-dogleg and the UR's stopped. Zoom out and you can see how it looks like a normal off ramp.

    Otherwise WeeeZer14 is 100% right on, but then he's been editing a few months longer than I.
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    Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

    Postby Wajo357 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:52 pm

    daknife wrote:The Exit right and Stay right instructions are also affected by they angle of the turn, less than 45 degrees will say "Keep right" or "Exit Right" More than 45 degrees will give a "Turn Right" command. So some of us will zoom all the way in and put a geometry node right next to the connection point to create a false 90 degree turn. I usually to this on right turn lanes to avoid ramp like instructions. It also helps avoid the keep left instructions just to go straight down the freeway. Put that micro dogleg at the beginning of the ramp and it will give the "Exit Right" command but say nothing about keeping left.

    Here is an example. I'd been getting UR's about users being told to keep left when passing this interchange, so I installed a micro-dogleg and the UR's stopped. Zoom out and you can see how it looks like a normal off ramp.

    Otherwise WeeeZer14 is 100% right on, but then he's been editing a few months longer than I.


    thanks for the tip.
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    Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

    Postby weeezer14 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:01 pm

    I'll start with the easy one... the "To" vs. "to". You are right, it should be lower case. And that is what I typed. The problem is a new "feature" of the editor that capitalizes the first letter of any street name. We've told the developers that the word "to" should be exempt and they agree and it will be fixed in a later version. It is already fixed in a beta version the Champs have access to, and I've corrected it from there. So be careful with any ramps you edit that have a name starting with "to" --currently no matter what you type the editor will change it.

    Hmm... the permalink works for me. You'll see the highway split.


    Yeah I saw the split okay, but the permalink included a segment ID and the segment ID wasn't in view. So I wasn't sure if it was the right view and the wrong segment or vice versa ;)

    I think your table is correct. FYI, originally on the NA server at least, ramp to ramp junctions rarely gave instructions or at least rarely gave predictable instructions, so the developers changed it so ALL ramp to ramp junctions are announced. Does this create problems or at least overly chatty situations? Yes. Does it solve many orders of magnitude additional other problems? Most definitely.

    Oh, and the things that your table does not include which may impact the results are also the segment names and the actual angles of the junctions. I can't think of a situation I can use to test, but I wonder if the "all ramps" is true even when two ramp segments have the exact same name and have close to a 0 departure angle between them??? But I have to assume that "all ramps" meant "all ramps" when they made the change.

    The only other solution to this scenario is to type the parallel collector lanes the same as the main roadway -- in this case, freeway. Permalink showing the segments we'd have to change to Freeway. I'd have to think about that idea before knowing how I really feel about it.

    2) Based on my table above, your route will create a voice command of "Exit Left/Right", option C above. I believe if you look at the street view, the best approach should probably be E (as I stated above) (as these don't appear to be technically 'exits'). You can see an example of what I did with E here:
    https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

    The regular road was named "State Rte 4" and it didn't say "Keep Left..." when I reached the fork. By changing the left name to simply "State Rte 4W", Waze sees that all 3 names are different, but the road types are the same, so it will use "Keep Left/Right". And now the voice directions are perfect when I go through those exits/splits.


    So that example, does it work well no matter which branch you take? I and other editors have had very mixed results with Freeways at least when we try to do a split like that. Thus the reason for the dual ramp split like I set up on the rt 46 example.

    Personally, I think once ramps are named properly we can get rid of the "Exit" instruction and just use the "Keep" instruction. Right now we get things like:
    "Exit right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Exit left to Rt 456 N"

    But I think this would work just as well and maybe better:
    "Keep right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Keep left to Rt 456 N"

    Or heck, make it "Keep" unless the segment name begins with the word "Exit" (localized for different languages of course) then we can have:
    "Exit right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Keep left to Rt 456 N"

    Maybe I am dreaming too big ;)

    (I typed this reply off and on during a conference call at work so let me know if I didn't address something!)
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