Wajo357 wrote:Interesting that the name for your highways are using the shorter nomenclature typically used for ramps instead of the recommended naming on the main wiki page discussing road names. Is there a reason you guys are taking this approach?

Interesting that you should ask that ... I just posted something about this last night in another thread (here):

Spil wrote:

ncc1701v wrote:and where do you come down on "SR-xx" vs "State Hwy xx" (on the main road, not ramps)? Is the Road Naming wiki page considered authoritative? Or rather, is it considered authoritative by a majority?

"State Route" is preferred over "State Highway" by New Yorkers pretty much everywhere that I've been in the state. The decision to go with "SR-##" rather than "State Hwy ##" was primarily to reflect this preference, and go with the option that took up the least real estate on the screen while still having the TTS call them out as "State Route ##". The ones that you see that are still "State Hwy ##" are named that way because that's how they came in from the basemap import, and they haven't been worked over thoroughly by someone following the current NY guidelines since the change to "SR-##".

AndyPoms wrote:I'd like to add that there is a push to try to get Waze to support things like NY-## which would display on the client as "NY-##", but TTS would say "Route ##" for NY, but "TX-##" would become "Highway ##" in TTS.

Personally, I would love to be able to use "NY-##" as the name and still hear "State Route ##" on the TTS, and if Waze ever does decide to act on that increasingly popular request, I'll be among the first to push for the switch to "NY-##". Until then, however, "SR-##" best represents the best compromise between popular usage and the need to conserve space on the screen.

WeeeZer14 wrote:Be careful with changing things to not be ramps. In some situations a ramp is the only way to force the client to give a navigation instruction. So if you have a fork and only one is a ramp, you may only get an instruction when you go on the ramp and Waze will remain absolutely silent if you go the other way. And no, having a different name won't help.

Exactly... that is why I'm trying to undo that and make sure it does give the proper voice navigation to both right & left.

Thanks for all of your help!

WeeeZer14 wrote:8.) We should not go from ramp to street to ramp. It will break long distance routing. If the only problem is "keep right" vs. "exit right", that is too minor to worry about.

Yeah... that's how it was, but after driving through that area a few times the voice instructions were bad enough to warrant me changing it to a street. The reason is that I take exit 70B. So before I get to 70A, it says "Keep left for 70B". In truth, if anyone gets to the left late, they probably won't have time to get back over. The roads doesn't split which would warrant a 'keep left' or 'keep right'. It should just tell the person "exit right" when the time is right to exit off of the road. In order for the voice to do that, you have to be driving on a non-ramp with the directions 'exiting' to a ramp. I know I'm probably being a bit anal, but I feel that this would be dangerous for someone not knowing this road to get to the left lane and then immediately to the right if following waze's directions (which they should).

More about my understanding of 'keep left' vs 'exit left' below.

WeeeZer14 wrote:9.) I can't find the specific segment you are talking about. That segment ID isn't in the view you permalinked.

Hmm... the permalink works for me. You'll see the highway split. However, the road to the left is classified as a ramp but the road to the right is just continuing the highway. This current approach doesn't tell anyone to keep to the right. Therefore we need to change that. From my experience editing the map I understand the voice commands as follows:

ROAD Currently ON--------------Road Splits into------------Travelling to-----------Voice Directions
A) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Non-Ramp-----------Ramp--------------------"Exit to..."
B) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Non-Ramp-----------Non-Ramp---------------NO VOICE
C) Non-Ramp-----------------------Ramp/Ramp----------------Ramp---------------------"Exit Left/Right"
D) Ramp---------------------------- Ramp/Ramp----------------Ramp---------------------"Keep Left/Right"
E) Non-Ramp------------------------Non-Ramp/Non-Ramp-----Non-Ramp---------------"Keep Left/Right" (As long both road names from the split are the same road type and have different names from the source road)

For #8, the driver is expecting "Exit Right to 70B..", with is A
For #9 and #10, the driver is expecting "Keep left to..." which is E

I may be wrong about some of these, but this is how I understand it based on what I've been experiencing editing and driving for the past year with Waze. Feel free to correct me.

WeeeZer14 wrote:10.) I updated the split to what I know works. A few of us Champs are discussing and testing if we need to go this far to ensure instructions. In my experience, I think we do. (I also tweaked some of your geometry. It doesn't need to be perfect by any means, but your curves should be a little more smooth )

Thanks again. I agree with you 100% that we should be giving directions when the road splits and it is not a self-evident exit. I hope you don't mind if I have 2 small critiques:
1) When naming the two segments, you wrote "To" instead of "to", per the wiki (https://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/How ... 6_Acronyms). Just a nitpick, but I think grammatically, the word 'to' isn't capitalized in titles.
2) Based on my table above, your route will create a voice command of "Exit Left/Right", option C above. I believe if you look at the street view, the best approach should probably be E (as I stated above) (as these don't appear to be technically 'exits'). You can see an example of what I did with E here:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

The regular road was named "State Rte 4" and it didn't say "Keep Left..." when I reached the fork. By changing the left name to simply "State Rte 4W", Waze sees that all 3 names are different, but the road types are the same, so it will use "Keep Left/Right". And now the voice directions are perfect when I go through those exits/splits.


Again, thank you very much. Let me know what you think of my table and your opinion of approaches.

3 more:

11) Varick St from the top should have a 'turn allow' for the ramp
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

12) White Canal St segment should not be able to turn back on the road coming from the bridge
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=8&lat ... s=65443094

13) Turn should be allowed from 12st St to Marin Blvd
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

daknife wrote:The Exit right and Stay right instructions are also affected by they angle of the turn, less than 45 degrees will say "Keep right" or "Exit Right" More than 45 degrees will give a "Turn Right" command. So some of us will zoom all the way in and put a geometry node right next to the connection point to create a false 90 degree turn. I usually to this on right turn lanes to avoid ramp like instructions. It also helps avoid the keep left instructions just to go straight down the freeway. Put that micro dogleg at the beginning of the ramp and it will give the "Exit Right" command but say nothing about keeping left.

Here is an example. I'd been getting UR's about users being told to keep left when passing this interchange, so I installed a micro-dogleg and the UR's stopped. Zoom out and you can see how it looks like a normal off ramp.

Otherwise WeeeZer14 is 100% right on, but then he's been editing a few months longer than I.

thanks for the tip.

WeeeZer14 wrote:I'll start with the easy one... the "To" vs. "to". You are right, it should be lower case. And that is what I typed. The problem is a new "feature" of the editor that capitalizes the first letter of any street name. We've told the developers that the word "to" should be exempt and they agree and it will be fixed in a later version. It is already fixed in a beta version the Champs have access to, and I've corrected it from there. So be careful with any ramps you edit that have a name starting with "to" --currently no matter what you type the editor will change it.

Good to know...

WeeeZer14 wrote:Yeah I saw the split okay, but the permalink included a segment ID and the segment ID wasn't in view. So I wasn't sure if it was the right view and the wrong segment or vice versa

Hmm... I didn't look at the link for an actual segment ID, but the view should show 5 segments. 3 of which pertain to what we discussed - the starting segment, the left split and the right split. Is this still unclear?

WeeeZer14 wrote:I think your table is correct. FYI, originally on the NA server at least, ramp to ramp junctions rarely gave instructions or at least rarely gave predictable instructions, so the developers changed it so ALL ramp to ramp junctions are announced. Does this create problems or at least overly chatty situations? Yes. Does it solve many orders of magnitude additional other problems? Most definitely.

Agreed. However, a bit off topic, I noticed in the last release of the app that there are now longer pauses between parts of the voice commands which make these chatty sections get backlogged and you are already 4 turns ahead before it can catch up.

WeeeZer14 wrote:Oh, and the things that your table does not include which may impact the results are also the segment names and the actual angles of the junctions. I can't think of a situation I can use to test, but I wonder if the "all ramps" is true even when two ramp segments have the exact same name and have close to a 0 departure angle between them??? But I have to assume that "all ramps" meant "all ramps" when they made the change.

I don't know when they made the change, but it used to be that it wouldn't give commands if the ramps did have the same name. I hinted to the names a bit in my table when I talked about it in option E.

WeeeZer14 wrote:The only other solution to this scenario is to type the parallel collector lanes the same as the main roadway -- in this case, freeway. Permalink showing the segments we'd have to change to Freeway. I'd have to think about that idea before knowing how I really feel about it.

Yeah... that would work too. I would also change the last segment before it merges back with the main highway since it isn't a 'exit left' situation.

WeeeZer14 wrote:So that example, does it work well no matter which branch you take? I and other editors have had very mixed results with Freeways at least when we try to do a split like that. Thus the reason for the dual ramp split like I set up on the rt 46 example.

Yeah...I've never had a problem with it once I've done it. I've driven to both the left, right and different exits on the right. All have been good. Unless they've changed something in the app since I've tried some of the variations.

WeeeZer14 wrote:Personally, I think once ramps are named properly we can get rid of the "Exit" instruction and just use the "Keep" instruction. Right now we get things like:
"Exit right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Exit left to Rt 456 N"

But I think this would work just as well and maybe better:
"Keep right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Keep left to Rt 456 N"

Or heck, make it "Keep" unless the segment name begins with the word "Exit" (localized for different languages of course) then we can have:
"Exit right to Exit 123: Main St" and "Keep left to Rt 456 N"

Maybe I am dreaming too big

(I typed this reply off and on during a conference call at work so let me know if I didn't address something!)

Sounds good to me.
Thanks again for your help.

WeeeZer14 wrote:

daknife wrote:The Exit right and Stay right instructions are also affected by they angle of the turn, less than 45 degrees will say "Keep right" or "Exit Right" More than 45 degrees will give a "Turn Right" command. So some of us will zoom all the way in and put a geometry node right next to the connection point to create a false 90 degree turn. I usually to this on right turn lanes to avoid ramp like instructions. It also helps avoid the keep left instructions just to go straight down the freeway. Put that micro dogleg at the beginning of the ramp and it will give the "Exit Right" command but say nothing about keeping left.

Here is an example. I'd been getting UR's about users being told to keep left when passing this interchange, so I installed a micro-dogleg and the UR's stopped. Zoom out and you can see how it looks like a normal off ramp.

Otherwise WeeeZer14 is 100% right on, but then he's been editing a few months longer than I.

Yep I quickly mentioned the angles in my reply I was working on for over an hour

Very interesting that there was a keep left instruction there since the two Freeway segments have the same name. Were they always named the same? What did the angles look like? Was it a very tight, close angle between the ramp and the Freeway segment (did the turn arrows totally overlap when you select the first Freeway segment)?

I agree with WeeeZer14. The current segments should not have had a 'keep left', even without the jog.

thanks... so do we still have need to do 8 and 9? For #9, I would pick any approach now (yours or mine) as long as there is something.

I agree that with faster updates, we can test things out without the fear of screwing the users for months.

WeeeZer14 wrote:I don't think we can improve #8 any more than it is right now. You will be told to "go right" to Exit 70B. That may be a "keep" vs an "exit", but for now I think that is okay until we get a total list of all conditions.

I made #9 into a dual ramp split since we know that works so it has some prompting for now (well, once today's updates go live).

thanks!

fyi.. the capital 'T' in 'To' was capitalized again