A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:03 pm

I PMed Weeezer14 earlier.

After looking at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=249&t=30299&p=288229

I decided to look at the Garden State Pkwy

The one section I looked at only has the segment under the toll marked as a toll, NOT the segments leading to it:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... TTTTTTTTFT

Maybe getting this changed will be easier than I thought? lol.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 pm

CBenson wrote:
Wajo357 wrote:Well... this can be mitigated by reducing the number of toll segments. Who has the guts to change the wiki? ;)

I'm not seeing how the reducing the number of toll segments mitigates the wrong-way over one-way segments problem.


Because once you pass the toll road segment, Waze won't give the restriction to the other segments thus trying to make you go the wrong way.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:48 pm

CBenson wrote:
orbitc wrote:I think, this needs to addressed. That would be very dangerous, in most other circumstances. I'm guessing that something needs to be change in the algorithm that forces waze to choose the wrong way when no toll road option is enabled.

I totally agree. The issue was presented to waze almost as soon as the avoid toll roads option went live. But as you can see, it hasn't been solved yet.


Well... this can be mitigated by reducing the number of toll segments. Who has the guts to change the wiki? ;)
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:45 pm

orbitc wrote:
Wajo357 wrote:
orbitc wrote:I would agree that one time penalty for the toll road rather than adding them up. I too cannot back that up. Perhaps. there could be other factors that made Waze chose that route.


Ok... so I figured out a way to play around with this behavior - but it means screwing around with my block. Since my block isn't a thru street at either end, I figure there isn't much risk in it.

My plan:

1) Test 1 - Flag both segments on my street (broken up by my waze voice test segment) as a Toll. Typically the shortest route directs me up the block with the longer of the 2 segments. So this will test to see if the length of a toll segment affects the system - if it routes me to go around the block through the shorter segment.

2) Test 2 - If it doesn't route thru the shorter segment, I'll break up the longer one into 3 smaller segments and see if that forces me to go around the block to only drive through the 1 toll segment instead of 3.

How does that sound?


Yet, another test...sounds good by me. Please let me know your findings.


Ok... Test 1 set. Will let you know over the weekend.

I also locked the segments for good measure. I don't want someone ruining my test before I can even drive through it.
Last edited by Wajo357 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:44 pm

orbitc wrote:
CBenson wrote:
Wajo357 wrote:-I just navigated to my parents from Wayne, NJ to Brooklyn, NY and it told me to go through the Lincoln, even though I had avoid tolls on. Interesting. Although I did clean it up a few days ago by removing the segments after the toll booth from having the 'toll' option on. Maybe the fact that there were only 2 small toll segments associated with this drive that had to do with something.

The current problem with avoid toll roads is that when you have avoid toll roads set, waze prefers to route you the wrong way through non-toll one-way outbound segments, rather than toll inbound segments. This is what is happening at the Lincoln Tunnel. Waze is routing through non-toll segments the wrong way into Manhattan over segments like these.


I think, this needs to addressed. That would be very dangerous, in most other circumstances. I'm guessing that something needs to be change in the algorithm that forces waze to choose the wrong way when no toll road option is enabled.


On Sunday I decided to take the Brookly Battery Tunnel even though I had 'No Toll Roads' on Waze and when I got to the segment with the toll, it had me just go backwards so it wouldn't go through the segment... lol. It is behavior like this that you want to minimize.
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:23 pm

CBenson wrote:
Wajo357 wrote:-I just navigated to my parents from Wayne, NJ to Brooklyn, NY and it told me to go through the Lincoln, even though I had avoid tolls on. Interesting. Although I did clean it up a few days ago by removing the segments after the toll booth from having the 'toll' option on. Maybe the fact that there were only 2 small toll segments associated with this drive that had to do with something.

The current problem with avoid toll roads is that when you have avoid toll roads set, waze prefers to route you the wrong way through non-toll one-way outbound segments, rather than toll inbound segments. This is what is happening at the Lincoln Tunnel. Waze is routing through non-toll segments the wrong way into Manhattan over segments like these.


I think you just listed another reason why having all of these segments marked as a 'toll' is bad. Am I correct?
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:12 pm

orbitc wrote:I would agree that one time penalty for the toll road rather than adding them up. I too cannot back that up. Perhaps. there could be other factors that made Waze chose that route.


Ok... so I figured out a way to play around with this behavior - but it means screwing around with my block. Since my block isn't a thru street at either end, I figure there isn't much risk in it.

My plan:

1) Test 1 - Flag both segments on my street (broken up by my waze voice test segment) as a Toll. Typically the shortest route directs me up the block with the longer of the 2 segments. So this will test to see if the length of a toll segment affects the system - if it routes me to go around the block through the shorter segment.

2) Test 2 - If it doesn't route thru the shorter segment, I'll break up the longer one into 3 smaller segments and see if that forces me to go around the block to only drive through the 1 toll segment instead of 3.

How does that sound?
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:14 pm

CBenson wrote:
Wajo357 wrote:In the past, I've accidentally tried routing into the city with 'avoid toll roads' option set. Since it couldn't find a non-toll route, it did use a toll road, but it used one all the way up north increasing the drive about 1/2 an hour. Why? Couldn't it have just selected the closest toll road?

I'd be interested if you could provide generally where the ends points of this route and what toll road waze selected. I have received the message that waze couldn't find a route a couple of times with the toll road avoidance on and would be interested to see when it does provide a toll route. Waze has said they are working on the problem where the only way to get a destination is by a toll route. Was it in the recent past that this occurred?
Wajo357 wrote:I'm now thinking that the toll road up north might have had less segments flagged as a toll than the ones in the city. THEORETICALLY, there should only be 1 segment per route per toll road. Thus the penalty would be the close to the same. However, if we follow this method, wouldn't the penalties be adding on each other?

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with the wiki.

Can anyone convince me why we should go crazy with the toll option flagging?

I was under the impression that the penalty was a one time transition penalty like the private roads and parking lot roads penalty, but have no evidence to back that up. If you are seeing the penalty based on the number of toll segments that would certainly be evidence to the contrary. I believe that the wiki language was written prior to actually seeing how waze implemented the toll road avoidance. I think there was some reason to believe that the toll characteristic might be indicated on the road on the map and, thus, all segments that you could only access by paying a toll should be marked. However, that does not seem to be occurring at this point.


-It would be nice if it was a 1-time penalty. But even if it is, since Waze doesn't specify the road with the toll, there is no need to go crazy with the segments not under the toll booth.

-I just navigated to my parents from Wayne, NJ to Brooklyn, NY and it told me to go through the Lincoln, even though I had avoid tolls on. Interesting. Although I did clean it up a few days ago by removing the segments after the toll booth from having the 'toll' option on. Maybe the fact that there were only 2 small toll segments associated with this drive that had to do with something.

We can't really test this theory like we could with the voice navigation. Any thoughts?
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:39 pm

orbitc wrote:I second that...
Also, "avoid toll road" option in the client just been implemented (if I am not mistaken).

In my opinion, if those roads near by to toll roads marked as "toll" is to let the driver know?


I don't think Waze alerts the user. I just think the navigation puts a strong penalty on the segment. Which is another reason why I think only the toll booth road should be flagged. Here is why:

In the past, I've accidentally tried routing into the city with 'avoid toll roads' option set. Since it couldn't find a non-toll route, it did use a toll road, but it used one all the way up north increasing the drive about 1/2 an hour. Why? Couldn't it have just selected the closest toll road?

I'm now thinking that the toll road up north might have had less segments flagged as a toll than the ones in the city. THEORETICALLY, there should only be 1 segment per route per toll road. Thus the penalty would be the close to the same. However, if we follow this method, wouldn't the penalties be adding on each other?

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with the wiki.

Can anyone convince me why we should go crazy with the toll option flagging?

Edit: I just tracked down who added that section to the wiki, and it is 'MapCat', who doesn't allow PMs. So that was a dead end...
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Re: A bunch of requests... NY/NJ area

Postby Wajo357 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:05 pm

Wajo357 wrote:found in on the wiki:

http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Best ... Toll_roads

Roads with tolls can be indicated by checking the Toll road box on the road segment properties tab. Only mark segments as toll roads if:
there is a toll booth, transponder reader, or other tolling device within, or at either end of the segment
there is no way to drive on that segment without eventually paying a toll (such as at an exit)

I guess it makes sense, but Waze should know that the routing will get you to a waze segment? So why make the editor go crazy in tracking all of these segments?


A perfect example:

I was just reviewing all of the segments in that area and noticed this small ramp segment was marked as a toll when it shouldn't have been since you COULD have taken it and then taken the next ramp to the left which is not a toll road.
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=61815382

You know what they say... Keep it simple stupid

I'm not sure the benefit of this policy is. What are we afraid the routing system of Waze will do if we unmarked all of these segments as a toll except for the one directly underneath the toll booth?

Edit: same with these:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... 4,67654775
It seems like this path is a U-turn where you don't have to cross the bridge if you made a mistake. This can be a route without going through the tolls again.

Edit #2 - Shouldn't all segments before and after this ramp on the RFK bridge not be a toll once it passed the toll booth, since they don't "lead up to" any tolls anymore?
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... s=61552578
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