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Marking "Alleys" As "Dirt Roads" Rather Than "Private Roads"

Post by APettyJ
Being an Uber and Lyft driver in the middle of a large city has impressed upon me more than ever the need for viable alternatives for when streets close for construction, police activities, events, etc. Oftentimes the main thoroughfares and even secondary ones may run in the same direction for several blocks, and when one adds the congestion often encountered in these areas, missing one turn and thus needing to use the next available street to make a run-around can sometimes take 5-10 minutes or more. In addition, hailing riders can track their rideshare drivers on a map that often shows the excluded streets, which may prompt the question of why the driver is skipping streets and thus calling their navigational skills and timeliness into question. This can contribute to being rated lower by the user, which can endanger a driver's status with Uber/Lyft. Granted, this isn't necessarily a Waze problem, but any help in using the app that Uber and Lyt drivers have been invited by Waze to use would be appreciated.

In addition, PR segments do not consistently render in the app, especially when navigating via passive means, i.e. using the map rather than actively navigating to a specific address. Drivers using Waze to make deliveries or making multiple stops in an particular area who know the streets are close together may prefer to use passive navigation in such circumstances rather than having to enter each address, which takes time and 'time is money' as they say!

On the other hand, from what I can gather the whole purpose of restricting the routing to these streets is because often the conditions or dimensions of the street are such that many Wazers may not like to be routed down them, choosing instead to stick to more standard size and easily navigable streets. Perfectly reasonable for Waze to give such users a way to opt out of using these streets, just as they can avoid using toll roads and now even "difficult turns". However, whereas with these options those who may be comfortable and even inclined to use them due to the time savings involved can still choose to, no such choice is available for those who have no problem using the "back streets" and perfectly navigable "alleys" that enable efficient movement in a city. Ironically, this kind of goes against the core mission of Waze, which was always to "beat traffic", and yet perfectly viable routes are being excluded to cater to those less comfortable in their driving prowess behind the wheel, or the less adventurous. Discovering such routes was one of the big draws to Waze for me.

Another concern some may have is with "map clutter". However, having had to use the app a whole lot in the inner city where streets are close to gather as are AP, I find that when using active navigation the names of streets and places not on the immediate path are suppressed anyway, so "confusing" app users wouldn't be a problem anyway, for those using active navigation. This is something I've noticed consistently in the app, and I've used it extensively in my ridesharing activities. For those using passive navigation "simplicity" involves more landmarks and signs to remove the guesswork of where one may be, not less.

I think a ready solution for a compromise between those who need the additional routing choices is to mark such streets where conditions and dimensions could be uncomfortable for some as "dirt roads". Such roads don't have the same suppression of their names as PR do, and can be enabled "by default" for routing choices for those who generally wouldn't be uncomfortable using such roads, which generally will be saavy drivers looking to Waze to supplement their skills in avoiding traffic and who already may be inclined to skip down alleys they know exist, as well as couriers and other pro drivers who also may regularly use such roads and thus aren't uncomfortable traversing them if being directed to when trying to save time. For those drivers who may have such a problem, they can always ignore the app's suggestion, which is what they would do even if the address they are navigating to is on the block, instead wheeling their cargo to the location from wherever they parked on the street they used to get there.

Navigation in a big city with a lot of traffic can be tough and frustrating. I hope something can be done to alleviate some of the pain for regular Wazers!
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Post by APettyJ
One, it's not"exactly" a map problem, so why would anyone submit a problem. There could be any number of reasons someone is not routed down a street, and the average Wazer wouldn't know that they weren't routed down a street because it is marked as PR.

Additionally, how would we know for sure? How many blank URs are closed without ever really knowing why the UR is there? And if they had reported it, saying something like "Waze didn't route me down this open street" I can see someone suggesting maybe there was a "phantom traffic jam" or other common reason Waze offers a funky routing, or they may just say "Sorry, there is nothing we can do, as that's how it is", which is the answer you are giving me now.

If someone is using the app in a professional capacity, submitting URs is the last thing that may be on their minds, and even if they may have intended to submit a concern later on it could slip their minds. Again, though, even if they had gotten in contact with an editor, the odds are good the concern would be tossed aside anyway.

The whole purpose of not using alleys, especially public ones part of the transportation grid, is because of concern that they have conditions resemble dirt roads. There is no other reason alleys aren't use that I have seen, so why would using "dirt road" or even "unpaved" in lieu of a more formal designation be a "hack"?

As for "guidance", it is meant to adapt to changing demand, including that which may not have been previously known. Sometimes I feel like guidance was not created with big city navigation in mind!

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Last edited by APettyJ on Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by APettyJ
Yes, except the roads being marked as "Private" are public roads, open to travel, i.e. "thru streets". Why are they marked as private, outside of concerns about their traveling conditions?

If similar situations did exist in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, guidance should be adjusted for them, too. Whether an editor would be willing to take the time to correct the situations there is another matter altogether. Can't help that. Someone is willing to make the adjustments in Philly, but current guidance does not allow for the changes be made. It is a problem that I doubt many editors here deal with, as most are not from urban environments with old street networks.
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Post by APettyJ
unlimited1808 wrote:I intend to write a more in depth response later in the week when I have more time. However, I wanted to add this quickly....I field far more URs for people that are routed through a Philly alley that they didn't appreciate, than I've ever fielded because they weren't routed down one. In fact, I can't recall any such complaints in the 3+ years I've been editing.
You've also fielded numerous requests to take out difficult turns or segments for people who aren't comfortable navigating in such scenarios, but you don't hack - and yes, marking public thru streets in such a way so as to prevent routing down them as "private roads" when they are in fact not, is by definition a hack - the map to do so. You tell them to choose the routing more favorable to them, but you don't remove the option for those who have no problem navigating the route, tough stretches and all.

Fact is, there are many roadways in Philly and other older cities that fit the description of an alley, but are clearly not. These roadways are allowed to remain a part of road near to facilitate traffic movement when perhaps another more regular road is backed up. Some of these back streets may have tight confines. Others traverse "tough" neighborhoods that one may not feel safe driving down. People who dislike them can opt not to drive them if routed to them. However, those who could use them can't opt to use that which isn't suggested.

Just because someone lives in Philly doesn't mean they know all the underused roads in a neighborhood. However, they probably can navigate those with relative ease, since there are going to be streets like that in their locales. So, not allowing these tighter streets to be used isn't "protecting" or "helping" the vast majority users of the road network at all, but catering to the relative minority visitors and out of town. Doesn't seem right.



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Post by APettyJ
RussPA wrote:Yes, it says Dirt Road, but internally it actually works with the Unpaved setting. The app has just not kept up with the changes to WME yet.

PR are not intended to be driven on unless the person's destination is on it. If someone wants to ignore that and drive it anyway, then they can chose to do that, but we aren't going to change every alley in the city to unpaved when it hasn't been shown to be a problem, and then by extension we'd need to change every alley in PA to unpaved, because the same issue could exist in Pittsburg or Erie or anywhere else. If we did, then we'd have people being routed down every alley along their route, we'd have people getting stuck and complaining that Waze told them to go this way. It would create more of a problem than it would solve.
Are Wazers allowed to choose whether or not they are routed over unpaved roadways? If so, then it goes back to why can't city streets that are currently marked as 'Not thru streets' be marked in such a way to give everyone the chance to elect what works best for them, without more saavy drivers having to take guesses as to whether or not the "private road" is really faster than Waze's route? I've been burned numerous times thinking I can beat Waze's times on regular streets, but it's 50/50 with the unused ones.

And why is it a "major hack"? How is it different than misapplying the "private road" designation to city thoroughfares? And before you say it would involve a huge undertaking of correcting streets changed and upgrading others, such an undertaking is already being done to convert all city streets that fit the description of an alley to private roads. It may take time, but as long as guidance is the way it is it will be done gradually as such roads are come across. The exact same method can be used as far as changing them to "unpaved".

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Post by APettyJ
The problem with that idea is that most of what is now being marked as "alley" does not have "Sysco trucks"do or any other delivery truck blocking them. They are NOT alleys at all, but serve a role more like relief valves when things go bad in the city. Especially the ones being marked in residential neighborhoods; no one sits in the middle of them, nevermind no one will "get stuck" behind any truck since one can spot them from the top of the block, and treat them like any other blocked street one encounters.

I suggested "dirt roads" or it's equivalent because those willing to risk a dirt road won't be bothered traveling down a tight street, although not all of the streets being marked "alley" are tight or one way. The entire process seems arbitrary and with no consistency, and the reason being given..."because the street might be blocked"? Have any of you ever been down a city street during trash day, for goodness sakes? And the typical delivery truck takes about as long as a trash truck ties up a block, which can be up to 30 mins. I know, I've dealt with them plenty of times. Even the Sysco tractor trailer doesn't want to be any where more than 15 mins.

City streets get blocked! That's why it's great to have many alternatives and backups. Y'all are crippling the grid, and I get the feeling you don't really travel in such situations except on rare occasion and so cannot relate to what I am talking about. So be it.


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Post by APettyJ
FYI, these are "alleys". They are legitimate private thoroughfares that are often blocked, and one cannot simply call the cops to have a vehicle moved. Google SV doesn't even photograph these, because they aren't suppose to drive down them.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201709 ... 2bd541.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201709 ... d1a324.jpg

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Post by APettyJ
This is Kimball Street in S. Philly. I regularly used it to make deliveries in my truck. Outside of trash day, it was not blocked any more than any other street. Why is it an "alley or private road"?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201709 ... 392e34.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201709 ... c169d1.jpg

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Post by APettyJ
NJMedic2535 wrote:Alleyways are neither dirt roads nor unpaved roads.
Using the 4x4/off-road type on roads that are passable by typical passenger vehicles is a very bad idea.
Using the unpaved checkbox to hack routing on segments is an equally bad idea.

Any road used for "Local Traffic Only" is considered to fall into the definition of Private Roadways. Therefore, an Alley that's only used if your destination is along said alley is technically a Private Road.
The alternative would be Parking Lot Road - a low-speed segment used at the start or end of a route such as an Alley in the city.

-G
Philly does not have streets designated "for local traffic only". They are all local streets, unless they are marked higher up the FC scale.

Some local streets are marked for "No Thru Traffic", but they are truly rare, and none of the "alleys" marked so have such signage.

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