US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Wed May 06, 2015 10:05 pm

Nice, how were the lines at Great Adventure?

Im actually fairly familiar with this ramp/route as I used to commute to PA.

I definitely see your point regarding continuity; we do not want this route to get pruned. At the same time we also dont want to make S Warren St more desirable for the local drivers in the area. It is tough to see but the FC map has this section as a local road- I blew it up to make it easier to identify:

S.Warren.jpg
Arrow = S Warren Rd
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So, 1- We already have it upgraded to PS from Street and 2- Waze seems not to have any problem finding this route; I tried it at almost every possible time and it always shows up either first or second in LM. The client listed the route second as well when I tested it at around 4:30 pm. See below. It appears that the upgrade to PS is sufficient for our purposes, giving longer drivers the route while not effecting local drivers. What do you think?

S.Warren.Rts.png
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S.Warren.Map.png
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TL;DR - Segments already upgraded to PS, additional upgrade to mh/MH unnecessary as routing works as expected.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Fri May 08, 2015 9:53 pm

Heh?

The point is it doesn't get pruned, even on the longer routes Poncewattle tested.

I'm not sure I understand your concern.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Sun May 10, 2015 2:10 am

Have you guys read the entire thread?

Perhaps, I wasn't clear. Yes, I tested longer end points; Poncewattle tested longer end and start points. Routing works perfectly for those using the highways. We acknowledged continuity in the first 2 posts and that was the basis for the question. Continuity is VERY important as it ensures correct routing. If routing is working however, continuity should not play a role as it will only effect the local drivers. If we upgrade it further it will directly effect the constant flow of local traffic in this area. So the question is has anyone tested longer routes that failed? If yes then absolutely we should upgrade it to MH. Otherwise, are there any other reasons to upgrade it that I overlooked?

If it ain't broke , don't fix it IMHO.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Mon May 11, 2015 1:32 am

Thanks PZ for the detailed response. I'm on the road and will reread it again shortly I just wanted to understand this: 1 - What is considered a longer route? 2 - What do you mean by under normal circumstances? I just tested it again - from Woodhaven Rd in PA to Pine Park in Lakewood, NJ and the route in question showed up first.
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Screenshot_2015-05-10-21-06-09.png
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It's a 50 mile route offered first (tolls allowed).

My dilemma is do we really have to concern ourselves with the possibility that there may be a special scenario or corner case where the apparent correct routing my not work and assume that the reason it didn't work is because of continuity? Is continuity a strong enough argument to effect local traffic patterns beyond reasonable doubt ?
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Wed May 13, 2015 8:14 am

Qwalatee,

A.
qwaletee wrote:I just think you reversed the applicability of pruning to local versus long distance routes.

Kobes1878 wrote:I definitely see your point regarding continuity; we do not want this route to get pruned.

Where did you get that from? I simply consider this route to be long enough to be applicable. Plus we tested longer routes which absolutely* are applicable to PS pruning, yet waze chose it as the first option, multiple times. (*absolutely = AFAIK.)

B.
Kobes1878 wrote:1 - What is considered a longer route?
--------------------------
It's a 50 mile route offered first (tolls allowed).

qwaletee wrote:For a long trip, it may start ignoring minor highways. You would not find pruning for very short "local" trips at all.

Are you answering this question?

C.
When it comes to routing, there are some things which we (read:I) will never understand or know completely. There are certain aspects of routing that we (I) think we (I) know and then I realize that in reality I literally know absolutely nothing about. The sort of information that would likely cost me about a smooth billion. But there is one thing I know forsure: Routing works here. Period. I know this because I tested it. On Livemap and on the client. I know this because others have tested it as well and returned the same results.
I also know that based on what we know this should not be the case. Based on all the knowledge cited in this thread, this route SHOULD NOT work. But it does. That is an indisputable fact that is well documented above.

D.
Based on the results displayed here, we can either conclude and say -
1) ...It works - perhaps waze is ignoring the 2-3 segments, perhaps this PS got preference from someone or something, perhaps {fill in the blank} - lets leave it as is.
2) ...The fact that it works is an anomaly/illusion/misunderstanding and we should follow what we know (blindly?).
3) ...Tests are wrong; we are right - it does not work. Here's why... {prove it}.

E.
Correct me if im mistaken but I believe you are saying option 3 - your test results are wrong/inapplicable. However, I don't hear any substantial proof or evidence of that being the case. I hear a lot of words such as "think", "may", "some evidence", "indirectly". But I have yet to hear an explanation which would deem the test results as false. PZ had a fantastic explanation regarding the second/toll-less option, but further testing showed that explanation stood on shaky ground.

F.
Im still just as confused from this post as I was from your last one. Are you explaining why the routing worked or why my solution to the OP was incorrect? Are you saying my reasoning doesnt make sense or that the route posted doesnt make sense?

G.
The most simple out, would be to prove that a 48 mile route is just not long enough for pruning of PS segments. But if that's the case, if 50 miles is not a long enough commute for waze to use this magical system I will go back to never understanding "pruning".

H.
FWIW, I am perfectly happy with the results here. A considerably short segment connecting a FWY->MH/FWY, typed PS and in the middle of a 50 mile route is entirely acceptable to me and I stand by my advice to leave it as is. Had the segment been in the beginning of my trip and was 5 mile long, then id be singing an entirely different tune. That said, instead of running around in circles, lets present this to Waze and see if they can help shed some light here - one way or the other.

Finally, please refrain from using names in the forums.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Mon May 18, 2015 4:24 am

PesachZ wrote:HQ is investigating these segments to see why they are not being pruned, but it may be working as designed.

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That's great to hear, thank you. I say we hold off on making changes here until their work is complete. Once we hear back I'm all for upgrading them to MH so as not to deviate from our standards (as phantomsoul said) and because there should not be any effect on the locals (as I understand qwalatee & pz). Not for nothing, this was an interesting case study.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby Kobes1878 » Mon May 18, 2015 5:50 am

Wow, did we just set a record for the quickest response time?!

While understandably not entirely complete, the reasoning is satisfactory to me and the segments have been upgraded to MH.

Based on what we saw here, I would conclude that we continue to follow our guidelines for continuity even in scenarios where routing appears to be working correctly.
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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby PesachZ » Mon May 11, 2015 12:08 am

I was asked for my 2 cents, i decided to give 3. Here goes, FWIW:

tl;dr: Even though it may "seem" to be working without any ill effects as-is, there may be special circumstances where it is having a negative effect on routing. Therefore it may still be advantageous to maintain continuity.

1) The reason it comes up as the 2nd option is probably because it is no toll, and the first option is toll. When the first option is toll the second option will be no toll even if it's much longer (if at all possible).

2) There's preference AND pruning, they are often confused but they are two different things. Preference always applies even on short routes, and may be having an effect here. Preference may be preventing this route from ever being the first suggestion, under normal circumstances.

3) Pruning only applies on longer routes, and while on a normal day any longer route should use the turnpike regardless, making this route be not pruned is still adventageous. We still want the routing server to have alternate options if it wants to avoid heavy traffic, an accident, or a road closure. If this route is being pruned, and there's severe traffic on the turnpike, it may still not detour around the traffic, if all the alternate routes are being pruned.

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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby PesachZ » Wed May 13, 2015 2:59 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:Do we know if the use of a relatively short PS connector between highways as part of a longer trip in which we would otherwise expect PS roads to be pruned is in spec for how navigation is supposed to work?
I mean it's ultimately up to you guys here, but it's also very possible that the PS segments working here is the result of a bug in the routing system - a bug which could be silently fixed at any time, thus breaking any configurations relying upon it. For that reason, I would strongly recommend not doing anything that would encourage similar treatments elsewhere by other editors, even if it means not documenting this in the wikis or even just plain not doing it here either.

We did discuss with a routing expert the effect of few PS segments in a long route. I'll ask Otto to look here, otherwise if everything we know days it shouldn't work, let's ask Waze to verify if it is a bug.

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Re: US-1 to SR-29 connector classification

Postby PesachZ » Mon May 18, 2015 3:56 am

HQ is investigating these segments to see why they are not being pruned, but it may be working as designed.

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