GSP Exit 135

Moderators: orbitc, PhantomSoul

GSP Exit 135

Postby NJMedic2535 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:02 pm

We discussed this a little in the GHO today, but with the storm closures everyone is a little busy.

original UR: https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... st=5001356

Erik's 'test' segments:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... =501540343

Conversation from GHO:

Anyone got suggestions on how to handle that one, besides telling them "follow the purple line"?
8:36 AM

@greg, the keep left instruction at the jug handle there is causing the confusion. I'm mobile, but it looks like a BC opportunity. Is that instruction to keep left necessary there?
Anthony • 8:38 AM

I don't think it's necessary. The natural path would be to not take the first ramp on the right.
I wonder if it was made this way since a "turn right" might get people on that first ramp since it's so close to where the turn would be.
8:41 AM

Yeah, would be a little confusing since you can actually turn right at that next light. If that next unnamed segment was named the same as the 135 exit segment, it would eliminate the keep left if I'm not mistaken. Not 100% sure that's the best fix though
Anthony • 8:43 AM

Said right ramp is clearly marked as something other than Central Ave (the right turn).
I was just gonna ask if the 'fix' is to name the second segment as part of the ramp.
I guess the question is ... what's going to generate more URs? Leaving the way it is we've only gotten ... 1?
8:46 AM

Right but said unnamed is not. So it's going from exit 135 to two different named segments, both ramp types, so neither is a BC. If the unnamed matched the 135 naming, it would satisfy BC. The keep right would still be announced when relevant to their route. I've never seen us name to segments in a row the same ramp name which is why I'm not 100% sure, but it would resolve the issue here
Anthony • 8:49 AM

@Matt? @Mark? @George? @ anyone who wants to weigh in on the above?
8:51 AM

I know this was re-configured and reduced the amount of URs since the keep left wasn't htere before and had people not prepared to go around the circle here: https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... st=5001356
1 UR every so often is much better than it was before
I know George has more experienced with this area, but see a few potential problems with making the ramp a BC - the turn right to Central could be confused with the keep right to Brant Ave
Matthew S. • 8:55 AM

I think that's the problem Ant and I were worried would happen.
8:56 AM

until we get a continue straight instruction someone's going to lose here
Matthew S. • 8:56 AM

I'm familiar with this exit though. Both straight lanes will take you around to central ave. the right lane will also continue to parkway north. The left lane, after going under the bridge, will take you back to gsp south. People use that left lane and then merge to the right lane under the bridge all the time (drives me nuts). The third straight lane going only to gsp north only opens up after the first intersection.
Anthony • 9:00 AM

Looking at the gps trail it looks like the user got into the far left lane and couldn't get back over in time to make the turn.
Way to anticipate making a right, buddy. ☺
9:04 AM

Right because as they exited the got an exit to 135...then keep left. That's why I think the keep left should be eliminated.
Anthony • 9:05 AM

There are a lot of LGS there...perhaps forking the ramps to meet the signs would be beneficial at this complex intersection.
Erik • 9:12 AM

But they're so close together you should get a "keep left then turn right" as one instruction. So wouldn't you hang in the middle of that big ol' ramp?
9:12 AM

I worked a ramp with 3 forks with Dovid to solve multiple URs. It's untraditional but I haven't seen a UR there since.
Erik • 9:12 AM

@Erik - I don't follow ... where to put the forks?
9:12 AM

the key is multiple URs
this is a high volume area and I would expect more complaints. Could it be improved? Possibly, but I want to make sure we review all the cases
Matthew S. • 9:13 AM

Even with this one UR, I think everyone familiar with the intersection identifies that this isn't working great.
Erik • 9:13 AM

If we removed the keep left instruction, what new issue would that create? If they stayed straight, both lanes would take the, around to central ave. the only thing I can see happening is they stay straight, move over to the far right lane and can only go to gsp north. That would have to be an intentional move though.
And also not likely since it is signed and they just came off gsp north
Anthony • 9:16 AM

the turn right could potentially send users down the earlier keep right exit.
That's at least a 1/2 mile detour vs. a 1/4 mile going around the circle
Matthew S. • 9:16 AM

@Erick - I'm familiar with that circle, and I'm not sold that what we've got isn't working.
I'm with Matt that a sole "turn right" taken too early would send them off south.
9:18 AM

Ah, I see what you're saying. They get off gsp, it says turn right, and it's more natural to take the keep right exit then the hard right turn at the light.
Anthony • 9:18 AM


I drew a mockup but you'll have to join me in PA. I don't have a big rural area in NJ to do this....
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... =501540343
Just turn off the editable area layer and you'll be able to see it better.
Erik • 9:29 AM

Erik, I like that but wouldn't it still possibly cause confusion with the turn right instruction to central Ave where they might take it sooner? If we had a stay straight to linden in your example it would be perfect.
At least it wouldn't create the keep left instruction though which would be better
Anthony • 9:31 AM

They won't get the turn right to Central until after they've keep left/righth to Linden.
Erik • 9:32 AM

Ah, true
Anthony • 9:33 AM

You still get the keep left but it isn't inheriting the Central Ave from the next named segment.
Erik • 9:33 AM
So our reporter wouldn't have gotten a "keep left" and not ended up in the left lane ... and the "turn right" would have come late enough to keep him away from the Brant Ave exit?
JAI seems to indicate a "keep right" for 'to linden' and for 'to brant' with a 'keep left' only for 'to westfield'
9:34 AM

Yes. The only problem is there are still keep lefts.
But they're named to match the LGS.
So while the keep left instruction isn't perfect, hopefully the additional information will get them in the right lane.
Actually, I missed in my own mock up that it's "keep right to Linden".
The lack of a "continue straight" really makes this a pain.
The only other thing that could be done is create a BC between Exit 135 segment and "to Linden" segment. It'll create no instruction for the middle lane and then drivers would get a "turn right to Central Ave E"
This driver was given a keep left to Central Ave E instruction.
Look at the signage that they would have seen when moving through this ramp.
On the far left side, approaching the Central Ave instersection, there's a LGS with "Central Ave" on it.
I'd have to think that's more noticeable on approach
Inheriting Central Ave for the unnamed keep right seems very incorrect to me.
and confusing.
Erik • 9:44 AM

Yes, I think the Central Ave signage is clear enough that a user *might* not turn right onto the Brant ramp when hearing a "turn right" without a "keep left" first
I revised my mockup a little.
Erik • 9:46 AM

@Erik - maybe remove "to linden" and just let it inherit at that point? I'm not sure though.
I think you're getting closer to fixing the UR in question.
9:48 AM

I don't like the inheritance here. It'll inherit Central Ave E for the right turn but Central Ave is on the LGS on the far left, as well as the overhead LGS on the crossbar.
I'd keep Central Ave but just the right turn.
The 2 left lanes can even be tucked tight together to avoid any visual identification.
Erik • 9:52 AM

@Erik - I see what you did there.
Only question I have ... are we (you) doing a lot of work to fix a problem very few users will have?
9:54 AM

No idea. I think it's confusing though and there isn't much work. Add another ramp segment, rename another, set appropriate turns.
Erik • 10:06 AM

@Erik - After the Brant off ramp, the segment before Central is extremely small to add any additional WF. I wonder how much will get lost in real time. I'm leaning with the comment earlier... you already will get a "stay to the left, then turn right".
What if we pulled back the node on the Brant ramp? Then that "stay" comes sooner and may give the left side a bit more time to react to the next "turn right" command?
John Beck • 10:28 AM

I agree. I pulled the Brant Ave segment back a bit in my mockup.
Erik • 10:30 AM

If we're going to change this, I like what Erik has mocked up given the overhead LGSs present. For brevity and to avoid TTS overlap, I would probably remove Garwood from the left fork.
Matthew S. • 10:58 AM

Nobody likes the Clark circle before or after the lights went in.
Scott • 10:59 AM

I started this whole bit ... so did we reach a consensus?
11:43 AM


no consensus, I want Michael, George or Dovid to way in on the proposal
Matthew S. • 1:14 PM
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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby PhantomSoul » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:43 pm

Without this keep left, you will get equal confusion about the Brant Ave exit. In fact, that's exactly the reason we forced this keep left here. A lot of people (URs) were confusing the turn right - that can connect to Valley St - with the bypass keep right for Brant Ave, especially if using a voice that doesn't read street names.

In any case I'm mobile until at least late tomorrow so can't really look at this further, but just off the top of my head, I'm not very sympathetic to this claim because Waze does tell you what the next turn is when it comes up quick like this. The driver had to see it was a keep left and then immediately turn right.
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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby PhantomSoul » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:34 am

So I recently drove this, since it's nearby, and it's really hard for an in-car navigation system to sort out, especially if using a novelty voice that doesn't read street names. Fact of the matter is that you have two separate right turns in almost the same place.

The only signs I noticed were an LGS over the right side of the roadway that simply had an arrow pointing right toward Rahway for the bypass turn directly into Brant Ave, and a second LGS over the left side of the roadway that simply mentions Linden and Westfield. The at the actual signal with the south-east-bound roadway of Central Ave, there is a sign that says to turn right for Linden, or continue straight and make the next left for Westfield.
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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby PhantomSoul » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:32 pm

Great illustration :)

However, Central Ave E and Central Ave W are on the LGS-es mounted to the traffic lights at each of those 2 intersections, and by best practices convention, that's what Waze displays in the banner and announces for the turn.

I did make some road type adjustments to the area that should actually improve the navigation of the eastern part of what used to be the circle - specifically the forks that connect to or past Brant Ave, Valley Rd, and the entrance to GSP North - No more "exit right..." instructions, and you will get a stay to the left or stay to the right at at all 3 forks.

Frankly, I don't feel it is unreasonable at all to get a stay to the left on Central Ave E and then immediately turn right on Central Ave E, which is exactly what Waze does when you have 2 maneuvers so close together. This case is simply a driver that wasn't paying adequate attention to the directions Waze was giving and got in the wrong lane as a result. Remember that keep left does not necessarily mean get in the leftmost lane, especially if Waze is both showing and announcing that your keep left is immediately followed by a right turn.

Finally, you're welcome to seek other opinions if you'd like, but I personally do not think the navigation prompts for this interchange can be improved any further, based on what Waze gives us to work with.
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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby PleaseDriveFast » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:55 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:Without this keep left, you will get equal confusion about the Brant Ave exit. In fact, that's exactly the reason we forced this keep left here. A lot of people (URs) were confusing the turn right - that can connect to Valley St - with the bypass keep right for Brant Ave, especially if using a voice that doesn't read street names.


That was my primary concern with this. In doing a potential recalculation the consequence of making a wrong exit down Brant Ave was approximately 1/2 mile with 2 non-signal controlled left turns in an urban area (according to NJ GIS). The current state of missing the right turn is only 1/4 loop around the circle at signal controlled intersections.

The addition of BGS signs in Erik's mock-up may blunt some of my concerns, but I'm not completely sold on this either. I'll just stay on the fence for now.
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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby unlimited1808 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:05 am

Those signs are what made this complicated. Which ones would we use? The overhead LGS don't have the same information as the ground LGS at the intersection. There are a lot of directions to go here in a complex intersection. I think leaving it as-is is a disservice to anyone that's going left. The instructions for anyone in the left 2 lanes are lacking. Through inheritance, drivers going left should be getting "stay left to Central Ave E", "stay left to Central Ave W" or "stay left to to GSP", none of which are what's on the signs leading up to this intersection.

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Re: GSP Exit 135

Postby unlimited1808 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:38 pm

I agree there was a certain level of ineptitude by the reporter. The instructions do prompt for an immediate right. That doesn't mean we can't make the instructions better and more congruous with the existing signage to clarify where you're supposed to be going. There is an LGS on the crossbar for Central Ave. However, what's more noticeable is the bigger green sign on the far left lane that has "Central Ave" on it. If you tell me to stay left to Central Ave, that sign is telling me to stay far left. Because the sign for the lane I really need says nothing about Central Ave, but Valley Rd and Linden.

Basically, instead of "stay left to Central Ave, then turn right on Central Ave", we can make it instruct "stay left to Linden, then turn right on Central Ave E". Regardless of a driver's competence, it puts them in the correct lane and not risking a difficult manuever with heavy traffic which is much more clearly instructed.
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