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Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by mrsmith66
Since the speed limit report feature was rolled out on the app, we have gotten a TON of speed limit URs. Some of them have pointed to two areas where the current wiki guidance is ambiguous. I am requesting that the NJ State Managers and Regional Coordinators offer definitive guidance on these questions.

1. Should we put speed limits on ramps? We are getting many reports on ramps without SL, especially in the GWB area and the Turnpike rest areas.
2. The wiki states that private installations are not normally marked with speed limits, but may be at local discretion. Some such situations are:
a) Apartment complex or shopping center with white, regulatory-appearing signs.
b) Apartment complex or shopping center with non-standard sign (usually looks like the other signs)
c) Private installation (usually apartment complex or shopping center) with speed limits established in the municipal code.
d) Private installation (esp. residential) with no speed limit sign - do we assign 25?

The standard that I used for Mercer and Middlesex was to use posted speed limit wherever I found it (including B above) and to use 25mph on any named or Street or above roads. For trailer parks I used a posted limit if I could find it and we downgraded any Street to PLR per the wiki.

SM/RC - what is the official NJ guidance? We're getting a bunch of URs in these situations.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by antgoesmarching
NJMedic2535 wrote:
I do, however, feel private property speed limit signs should be reflected in Waze. Even if the local PD can't enforce the speeds they are there for a reason
I don't understand how this argument would be different than the argument of including the advisory signs on ramps and such. Those were obviously posted for a reason as well.

With that said, I don't want waze dinging at me constantly, so the parameters around where we apply SLs feels necessary. White and black signs on private roads, whether enforceable or not, come with an expectation of the average wazer that they are indeed enforceable, and will appear as an omission on our end if they are not included, rather than a nod to our deep understanding of the law. My vote is that if it looks like a standard black and white sign, we add it.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by JB15TM
I often see signs entering a town "village speed limit 30" (or 25, etc). Most streets are not signed - and not all entry points to a village are signed either. Unless posted otherwise, I've been using the default SL for the town / village.


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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by KTCAOP
I mean, ramps are kind of a debate right now.

I believe the instructions from Private Installations came during the time where we couldn't apply Speed Limits to PLR's/PR's, but now we can, I have no problem with actually mapping them by either prima facie or declared speed limit laws.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by mrsmith66
NOTE - input from others welcome until the SM/RC folks decide.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by mrsmith66
By law, ramp advisories (yellow sign) are not enforceable as speed limits (they may be enforceable as careless/reckless driving).

Private developments fall into three categories:
1. Agreement with the township and laws in the municipal code. (typically large developments or malls)
2. No agreement with the township, regulatory style signs.
3. No signs, or non-regulatory style signs.

#1 is enforceable but rare, and should be treated like public streets IMO.
#2 is fairly common. The police probably won't ticket people. But the driver probably thinks it's a law. So I recommend putting in the SL.
#3 is also fairly common. I believe we'll get lots of URs and recommend putting in the default speed (25) or the posted speed in whatever form. But I know that this is the point of contention.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by mrsmith66
It's been a week since this was opened, so anybody who wished to add feedback has had a chance.

SM/RC folks - do you have an answer?
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by mrsmith66
Thank you all for your comments.

SM/RC folks - can we expect a definitive ruling, setting NJ policy? Or should we use the comments here as guidance as we each do our own thing?
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by NJMedic2535
PhantomSoul wrote:
  • Are ramp advisory speeds actually speed limits?
  • Are privately declared speed limits on privately posted signs on private properties actually speed limits?
  • What do SMs in other nearby states think; do we think it's worth elevating this question to the regional or national level?
  • (How) Is New Jersey different enough with regards to this situation to warrant special treatment?
As for my opinion, I would rather leave the SL blank to indicate a "we don't know situation" than guess, wherever an official speed limit is not evident. That being said, has anyone responded back to these SL UR's explaining our position and maybe asking why they felt that ramp advisories should be included with speed limits? If so, has anyone seen responses converging toward any big reasons? Or, is this just about seeing a lot of URs in general? Remember, if it's just about high volume, that can be solved with a custom URC comment (or maybe even a built-in one if you're really nice to the URC team ;) ). Also, maybe if a ramp, for example, is large enough to have an actual "native" speed limit - like with a white sign - we should be asking ourselves whether those segments should be ramps or an appropriate highway type instead, right?
I don't feel yellow advisory signs are actual speed limits. I'd rather not get a 'ding' from my phone while driving unless I'm eligible for a ticket, and I'm pretty sure those advisory signs are not enforceable per-se.

I do, however, feel private property speed limit signs should be reflected in Waze. Even if the local PD can't enforce the speeds they are there for a reason - the local community there wouldn't like you speeding thru. One apt complex I lived in would try to tack a fee onto your rent if you were caught speeding in the complex. Or so the rumor went.
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Re: Requesting speed limit ruling from SM/RC

Post by NJMedic2535
antgoesmarching wrote:
NJMedic2535 wrote: White and black signs on private roads, whether enforceable or not, come with an expectation of the average wazer that they are indeed enforceable, and will appear as an omission on our end if they are not included, rather than a nod to our deep understanding of the law. My vote is that if it looks like a standard black and white sign, we add it.

^^^^ He said it better! :D
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