Flemington Circle

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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby Odessit68 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:50 pm

Everything has been completed for three weeks now. No new URs so far.
I haven't had a chance for BOG test.
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Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:02 pm

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... s=70252911

Yesterday, I had an issue with the directions given going through this circle on northbound US-202. It is locked at L5, and from a visual inspection of it, everything looks ok, but when I drove through, I got the roundabout graphic in the upper left corner of the display, which is ok, but as I got close the instructions simple said "Take roundabout exit" and nothing more. Once I got into the roundabout, there was no instruction to take the first exit into US-202 N / Somerville.

There are a few other URs nearby that appear to be suggesting the same kinds of problems. I would think that every exit out of every roundabout - including the so-called through-routes in New Jersey's circles - should always produce a "Take nth roundabout exit at..." instruction, even if the angle of deflection is zero, as it appears in this case.

Does anyone have any ideas about this circle?
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:06 pm

For what it's worth, OyyoDams's Toolkit extension does identify this circle as a roundabout with potential problems with its dashed-blue-purple line over the circle. Not sure how to get further information about it though...
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:44 pm

Naming segments in a roundabout (circle) is supposed to be a no-no, I think. This is why editors will often put a landmark into the circle if it is known by a name - though I'm not sure if we're supposed to do that or not. I think, also, that the roundabout segments have to be whole, and the only junctions can be entrances and exits, which also need to be unnamed. Roundabouts also don't like ramp segments, though I didn't see any here; that is, for each entrance and exit in the roundabout, you have to be able to complete those access roads without going over any ramp segments. That means no short ramp "way-finder" segments to describe a BGS at the turn.

Can anyone comment on these theories?

I noticed there's a parking lot driveway connected into the roundabout at about "5 o'clock." Perhaps this is causing the problem? If so, there's a bunch of businesses along the circle, and we may have to choose between the driveways or just getting rid of the roundabout and using regular highway segments.
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:53 am

I would try rebuilding this circle from the ground up. I'm pretty sure the parallel segments are causing errors here. Circles (roundabouts) must have consecutive segment numbers, must have 1 and only 1 way to traverse around the roundabout (the parallel segments are in violation of this), must not have any segments on the inside of it, and every node along the roundabout traversal can have no more than 3 segments touching it, 2 of which are part of the roundabout's traversal.

One thing to consider here, which I know has caused URs in the past implementations of this junction: if we configure this junction as a circle (roundabout), all the turns into the parking lots off the circle will count as roundabout exits. This means that when traveling through north on Route 202, for example, instead of getting a "Take the first roundabout exit to US-202...", you will get a "Take the fourth roundabout exit..." because the 3 driveways along that part of the circle count as the first 3 exits. I agree that this is highly confusing navigation, because I, at least, would never consider those parking lot access roads as roundabout exits or entrances. In fact, you don't even notice them unless you're trying to turn into or out of them.

In the end, I'm pretty sure we will have to choose between roundabout style navigation at this junction, or just a quick series of keep lefts/keep rights depending on where you're going. Personally, I'm leaning toward the latter because of those parking lot access roads, and Waze's lack of supporting those as part of a roundabout without counting them in the sequence or roundabout exits you have to navigate.
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:48 am

I think I have to agree with qwaletee's latest assessment here - we need to drop the roundabout segment and the roundabout navigation language. I just don't see a way to make it work with the parking lot driveways along the southeast part of the circle without them being announced as sequenced exits in the roundabout.

Coming north on Routes 202/31, we absolutely cannot have the parking lot be the "first exit from the roundabout;" people are just not going to see that as much as the right fork for Route 202 north being the first exit of the roundabout. Yet we still have to connect the parking lots to the highway at the aprons if we want to avoid routing errors in the area.

Because of the above concern with roundabout segments, we no longer have a closed loop of roundabout segments, and cannot use a roundabout - or that style navigation - here.

Instead, I would suggest a each fork have a minimal name (maybe just the highway shields?) so that a rapid sequence of "keep lefts" and "keep rights" can be read out in time for each maneuver based on the average speeds that WME Route Speeds shows.
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:54 am

I'm ok with this. Again, I just have the 2 concerns:

  • Roundabout segments don't seem to have an acceptable way to work without counting the parking lot driveways on the southeast side as part of the sequence of roundabout exits. This has been tried in the past and generated a lot of URs, as drivers through the area inherently do not see those parking lot accesses as part of the sequence of circle exits.
  • As a result of not using roundabout segments, navigating the circle is likely to involve a rapid series of stay to the left/stay to the right directions - likely too rapid to include all names on the signs posted and still be able to get the next instruction in time if using a voice that announces street names. My suggestion as an NJ driver of over 20 years: use only the highway names and omit the control cities when necessary to expedite instructions.
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:01 pm

Looks good to me! Thanks for working on this :)
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:40 am

qwaletee wrote:Watch out for BDP, especially on the "to ..." prefix.


The Junction Angle script is actually useful for this - the color of the angle bubble will tell you what kind of instruction that turn will get, if any at all.
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Re: Flemington Circle

Postby PhantomSoul » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:19 am

Sounds good about the KL/ER.

Just a little background context, this junction is deliberately not configured as a roundabout because the store parking lot entrances on the southeast side were being counted as exits, causing drivers going to get unexpected exit numbering out of the roundabout. Most drivers do not see the parking lot entrances as part of the sequence of roundabout exits, so it was causing a lot of URs to get "Take the 3rd roundabout exit for US-202 N..." when approaching on US-202 N from the south, where a driver would typically expect to be told to take the 1st roundabout exit for Route 202 north, right?

However, if I understand correctly, they may be adding a physically separated collector/distributor roadway to connect those store parking lots on the southeast side, which may allow us, once again to go back to a roundabout style configuration, so long as there aren't any obscure driveways along the roundabout that would be unexpectedly counted in the exit sequence.
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