Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby whoaitspete » Tue May 14, 2019 2:12 am

So after some research, I think we need to stop considering the use of ZIP codes alt names and continue to review city name URs on a case by case basis. In some situations, we have ZIP codes the size of towns, covering several hamlets and even multiple villages. And these do not necessarily match the names of the towns. We run the risk of duplicate house numbers fairly quick, so I think it's best to leave search to handle this end.

However, I think we should move forward and test hamlets in Suffolk County. The few towns here are large, and there is either a village or hamlet that uses this town name within the town. To avoid having to use a name format of "Town of", "Village of", or "Hamlet of", I think sticking with villages and hamlets are the best bet. According to the Suffolk GIS viewer, villages share the boundaries of their respective hamlets, so there are no border issues geometry-wise.

Based on this and JS's previous work, I proposed a small test project with Sulfolk hamlets to: 1) Fill in the few areas with "no city" and 2) Check the borders of the hamlets. Many borders are actually divided down the center of roads, so these segments need to be checked to ensure there are both hamlet names on the street. The primary can be decided with discretion, based on what is present on that road.

I have swept through and there are a few CDPs listed in Waze that are not drawn on the hamlet map. Thoughts on keeping them? North Bay Shore and Northampton (2). We also have the Shinnecock Reservation in Waze, but it is not included in the hamlets. I do believe that should stay, as we keep other reservations names.
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby DrivingWithBill » Tue May 14, 2019 4:54 pm

I would be interested in participating in this test project, however have limited area.
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby DrivingWithBill » Wed May 29, 2019 2:18 pm

I think this topic continues to provide confusion even among State Managers from other states, recently this was discussed about how to handle the neighborhoods of Queens

And again with a UR today of North Merrick vs Merrick.

How is the test going in Suffolk?
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby dude495 » Wed May 29, 2019 2:52 pm

DrivingWithBill wrote:I think this topic continues to provide confusion even among State Managers from other states, recently this was discussed about how to handle the neighborhoods of Queens

And again with a UR today of North Merrick vs Merrick.

How is the test going in Suffolk?


This is a discussion the SM's are continuing to discuss off the forums. Unfortunately there is no quick and easy fix or change in guidance. As soon as a decision on how to appropriately and effectively handle this we'll let you all know, this is not a topic we've forgotten about, believe you me. In the mean time everything will be handled on a case-to-case basis which will require approval by SM before making any city name changes.
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby voludu2 » Wed May 29, 2019 3:57 pm

While the details are being hashed out, I propose to the New York State community a simple guideline that can be added to the wiki page for the reference of all editors, and especially new editors and visiting editors from other states:

* State Manager approval needed for any changes to polygon boundaries (segment primary city name).
* State Manager approval needed for the addition of any new city names (used in segment primary or secondary, RPP address, or public place address)
* State Manager approval needed for addition of alt names to segments to fix address search problems related to HN or RPP. MC must be used for this information.

I think a simple google sheet could be used when these types of changes are made - problem. solution type (rpps, change to primary name, change to alt name, fix in google maps). Whether it was successful. This could help inform the discussion of developing guidance for the benefit of SMs and everyone else.

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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby DrivingWithBill » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:39 pm

I was following up to see if there was any updates on the hamlet testing in Suffolk County, its been several months and I was hoping that there was more of a clear picture or feedback available at this time?
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby WRF501 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:38 pm

If you think Suffolk is bad, come on up to Sullivan County.

I spend much time in the Town of Callicoon. On the map, my 'hood has a city name of Callicoon. This is far from the truth. I spend time in Callicoon Center, which is a very different place than the Hamlet of Callicoon. The hamlet of Callicoon is not in the Town of Callicoon, but in the Town of Delaware 15 miles away. The hamlet of Callicoon shows up on the map as "Callicoon (2)". Clear as mud.

At least the Village of Liberty is in the Town of Liberty... or the "Greater Liberty Area"
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby voludu2 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:35 pm

The situation is (mostly) much less complicated in PA, but based on our experience there, I think it can be useful to think about the two different uses for city names quite separately.
1) segment primary name used to create "city polygons"
* in which place names float around the map
* which appear in hazard reports ("near Newark, DE")
2) city names used in address search and displayed Place addresses
* added in alt addresses on segments so HN and RPP search can work properly
* used in RPP in cases where HN won't work, or in cases where wazers add RPPs with photos, so that address search by mailing address will retrieve an RPP when appropriate
* used in public point and area places so that wazers can choose the chain location they actually want to drive to.

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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby DrivingWithBill » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:37 am

The challenge is we still dont have clear guidance on what would be best practice. It sounds like zip codes are greatly discouraged however many of the hamlet/villages ultimately duplicate these zip code names. Further multiple senior editors have gone ahead and started adding the neighborhoods of NYC as alternative cities which may make sense but is not something the newer editors are allowed to do.

It would be beneficial to better understand the testing that is occurring, as there has been no indication of what was tested and any further guidance and we have still not heard back from any New York state manager to this topic. I realize I might be a pain in the butt newbie editor that doesnt know anything but I have a desire to learn and ask question on how things work.

(It seams that more and more conversations are occuring via discord or other avenues which are off limits to many other editors, it would be nice to see some of these conversations in the forums. In fact if I hadnt had a chance to login to discord recently I would never have had the chance to even learn about the meetup as this years one was not posted in the forums at all)
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Re: Hamlets, CDP, Zip Codes

Postby DrivingWithBill » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:27 am

DrivingWithBill wrote:I was following up to see if there was any updates on the hamlet testing in Suffolk County, its been several months and I was hoping that there was more of a clear picture or feedback available at this time?


It’s been two weeks and no feedback from ANY New York State Managers. Disappointing to try and advance this topic and get complete radio silence.
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